Porro vs Roof (1 Viewer)

My main interest is in photography, but I need some decent binoculars. What are the best porro or roof prism & are x8 or x10 better for birding. It seems from what I've read that Nikon Monarch are popular.

Thanks Bruce

I'm afraid you will have to be a bit more specific. The range between "Decent" and "Best" is very big with binoculars although you can narrow down the Porro Prisms much faster than you can narrow down the Roof Prisms. Give us more info on how and when you will use them and how much money you are willing to spend.

cordially,
Bob

Robert Falcon said:

My main interest is in photography, but I need some decent binoculars. What are the best porro or roof prism & are x8 or x10 better for birding. It seems from what I've read that Nikon Monarch are popular.

Thanks Bruce

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Hi Bruce,

The reason you probably haven't been deluged with suggestions already is that your questions touched on all the hot button issues: porro vs. roof, 8x vs. 10x, decent vs. indecent, classiness vs. popularity, ... etc.

The consensus would be that 8x is the most versatile power for birding, altho the opinion distribution is probably multimodal with somewhat fewer preferring 7x or 10x.

As Bob suggested, highly recommended Porros can be readily narrowed down, altho there are many inexpensive ones to choose from that do work quite nicely. The common view would probably be that the Nikon 8x32 SE is the finest 8x Porro currently being marketed. They are not waterproof, but they are approachable in cost (~$700 USD), very durable, and provide an exquisite view.

It's fair to say there is no consensus in the 8x roof prism area. The four high end manufacturers are Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, and Nikon. Each makes one or more 8x binoculars in the indecently priced ($1500±300 USD) range that would be hard to choose between in terms of quality. Close behind are Bushnell, Miopta, Kahles, Swift, and several others offering excellent products that would probably do every bit as well for birding, if not for bragging. My personal favorite is the Model 828, 8.5x44 Swift Audubon selling for ~$300 USD.

Hope this helps,
Ed

Bruce,

Excellent summary from Ed :t:. If you would like to read more on the subject, just scroll down the page and you'll conveniently find links to some earlier discussions.

Regards,

Ilkka


EDIT: Robert -> Bruce

Robert Falcon said:

My main interest is in photography, but I need some decent binoculars. What are the best porro or roof prism & are x8 or x10 better for birding. It seems from what I've read that Nikon Monarch are popular.

Thanks Bruce

Click to expand...

I'd say that the concensus is, for the price, that the Nikon Monarchs are the best value around especially, from what has been written here and elsewhere, the 8x or 10x36. It's a waterproof binocualr, too, which might or might not be useful, depending upon your birding habits.

I think the previous comments hit on the key issues which may limit specific suggestions. Price and quality being the two key characteristics that need to be identified before further suggestions can be made.

You mentioned the Monarchs though. At that price point they are a very good buy in terms of optical performance, overall durability and design and a solid warranty.

I find some use for 8x40 porros, but mostly use roofs. Here is a survey and some opinions
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=52596

How many of the Monarch fans regularly use them for more than just quick viewing (say less than 3 minutes)? with good results?

They alway seem tops in the reviews. At first glance, I'd tend to agree. However, I have experienced eye strain within minutes with at least three different pairs (8x32 and 8x42). As well, when really concentrating on particular birds,etc, I've struggled to get that really sharp center image. I know this is minority opinion - just "keeping' it real"

If you plan to actually watch birds, etc for more than just a few minutes, I would NOT recommend the Monarchs. We don't yet know what your $ range is, but there are alot of options under $500. You might consider the Pentax SP, the Zeiss Diafun, or the Swift Audubon (porro) for better viewing.

We are at the mercy of sample variation of course but during the last four years I have used my 8x42 Monarchs some 2000+ hours without eyestrain. Most of the time I use them with a Finnstick which is a necessary tool for every serious birdwatcher.

Heikki

The worst eye problem I got was staring at birds close by with 8x40 porros. It all depends on the user, the eyes, the adjustments and probably alignmnmet of the unit you have in hand. I think there are individual differences in vision that lead people to different models.

Have not had major problems with 10x42 Monarchs. CA does not bother me.

APSmith said:

How many of the Monarch fans regularly use them for more than just quick viewing (say less than 3 minutes)? with good results?

They alway seem tops in the reviews. At first glance, I'd tend to agree. However, I have experienced eye strain within minutes with at least three different pairs (8x32 and 8x42). As well, when really concentrating on particular birds,etc, I've struggled to get that really sharp center image. I know this is minority opinion - just "keeping' it real"

If you plan to actually watch birds, etc for more than just a few minutes, I would NOT recommend the Monarchs. We don't yet know what your $ range is, but there are alot of options under $500. You might consider the Pentax SP, the Zeiss Diafun, or the Swift Audubon (porro) for better viewing.

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I really don't think you can extrapolate as you are doing. You are suggesting that all those who have written in here, and those who have written reviews, have not used the binoculars extensively? That would be very odd indeed.

Nikon optics are, in my experience, supremely well thought out and well designed. I don't own Monarchs but did own the very similar 8x36 Sporters - they were a great binocular in every way.

I apologize for coming across as I apparently did. My intention was not to question the experiences of others, but rather to find out more about those experiences, to see if perhaps there were some which agreed with mine, and of course, to give Bruce an honest (though unpopular) opinion.

My primary binoculars are Nikon EII 8x30, which I believe rival anything out there, at any price. I generally have confidence in Nikon products. I also thought the Sporters were impressive. I actually have a pair of the 8x36 Monarchs now, which I will not keep. I WANTED TO LIKE THEM. I had thought they would be like the 8x36 Sporters but better. To my eyes, they weren't. I found them to have the problems indicated earlier, as well as side-to-side focus play (had to come to focus from same direction to get best image). Could be a QC thing - hasn't that been suggested by others?

found them to have the problems indicated earlier, as well as side-to-side focus play (had to come to focus from same direction to get best image). Could be a QC thing - hasn't that been suggested by others?

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I have actually often mentioned my preference for the focus of the 8x42 as opposed to the 8x36 mainly because of the focus speed but also because of the "bit of play" you mentioned.

I have owned several pairs of the various Monarch configurations. Some suffered from quality control issues possibly related to the problems you mentioned. Others were entirely free from defect and performed flawlessly even after extended use.

(more on the Monarchs):

Assuming the others I had tried were bad samples, I acquired the pair of 8x36 Monarch ATBs (that I have now) just to have a smallish, car, "beat and bang" backup. They looked great in the store.

I just now went out and scanned again, with the 8x EII as a reference. The Monarch is good when you first pull it up - little "wow". But, as I concentrate on a goldfinch in the very center of the view, I'm back and forth with the focus and still not getting that tack image - it's not horrible at all, just noticeably not sharp. I noted a similar effect in a different pair a while back. It's been a while on the 42s, but I specifically recall having to pull away and relax my eyes - almost feeling dizzy. And yes, I have checked, adjusted, etc the diopter to rule that out.

BTW In comparison, the EII snaps right on to the goldfinch, sharp!

If it's a QC thing, I don't like it. Let's say you get a good pair, and then damage them. Okay, you send them in for $10. Nikon will likely just send you a new pair - maybe cherry, maybe lemon. From my experiences, your chances aren't even 50%. I guess you could send back the lemon, but it gets a little aggravating at that point. I believe Nikon can "service the claims" cheaper than they can inprove their quality (in this line, that is). They seem to know what they're doing - they are selling lots, with mostly happy customers. Oh well.

APSmith said:

(more on the Monarchs):

I just now went out and scanned again, with the 8x EII as a reference. The Monarch is good when you first pull it up - little "wow". But, as I concentrate on a goldfinch in the very center of the view, I'm back and forth with the focus and still not getting that tack image - it's not horrible at all, just noticeably not sharp.

Click to expand...

AP

I agree about the sharpness of the 8x36 Monarchs. They look pretty good to me until I get them out with my L, S and Z brands at sunset doing comparisons. They are just not as sharp side by side, but not all that bad if using them by themselves. I have gone so far as to measure collimation and magnification of the right and left tubes of the 2 pair I have to see if something was a little off. They appeared to be in good adjustment. I do not know why they are a little soft but they are.

Ron

APSmith,

The 8x30 E II sets a tough standard for any binocular, and that partly explains your experience and why it differs with what some others say. It is also possible that you have unusually good eyesight, which would make you more sensitive to the slight softening of image and slight lack of contrast that all but the very best roof-prism binoculars contribute to their image. Only getting a good image while focusing from a certain direction (close towards far or vice versa) is a sample defect in principle, but the matter is not quite that simple. All roof-prism binoculars will have some tolerance in the focus mechanism, and it is more than likely that the tolerance is not exactly the same in both tubes. Thus, there is likely to be some difference in the effective diopter setting depending on which direction you focus from. In a "good enough binocular," this difference will be so small that the eye cannot detect it. On the other hand, all center-focus porroprism binoculars have some play in the bridge, and if there is too much, a very similar effect occurs - only it may not be (but may be) directly related to the focus direction. The E II has an exceptionally solid bridge, so there is much less of this annoyance with it than with most porros. Now, the extent to which these unwanted focus differences between the two tubes of a binocular bother us depends largely on the ability of our eyes to accommodate. I hardly noticed these problems before I turned forty, but now some ten years later, I'm very sensitive to them and cannot stand to use binoculars with "excessive" focus play in one or the other tube. Parallel to this increased sensitivity is the need to set diopter much more precisely, and to change the setting depending on the state of my eyes at the moment. Initially, I would set and forget the diopter. Then, I noticed that I needed different settings for daylight and twilight/night viewing. Now, I pretty much need to re-adjust diopter every time I use binoculars, no matter how good they are.

What I'm basically getting at is that I hear the differing opinions expressed in this thread as probably all being accurate and true accounts of their writers' experiences. I certainly would have argued a different line ten-fifteen years ago than I would now, given the very same binoculars to evaluate.

Kimmo

I am looking for decent binos under £100, roof prism x10. So what are good or at least respectable for under £100.

Robert Falcon

It might be the Monarch. I have 10x, they are fine. Binoculars are not like camera lenses, so in this price class you will have softness of image around the edges.

They focus on the bird in the center, not the entire view. Try that, AP, I would have gone for the 8x42s maybe. I do have some 8x32s for wide fov, but the 8x42s are acceptable. Somehow, the smaller the objective lens, the harder time they have making these cheaper roofs acceptable for birding.

I've looked at Nikon Monarch, but are the Bushnell birdwatching ones any good.

Falcon,
If you do splurge and get the Mighty Monarchs, you'll probably be quite pleased with them - I do think they're "respectable".
All these knowledgable posts from the Regulars clarify the issue somewhat.

Good luck, AP