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Scottish Birder Questioning Ringing Birds (1 Viewer)

mags1967

mags1967

Well-known member
I Live Next To A Pond Which Is A Nature Reserve.was Speaking To The Rangers Who Said Someone Had Seen Jack Snipe And They Were Going To Come And Net The Area.i Had Been Told They Found 2.the Other Day I Was Out Walking In My Local And Meet This Someone And His Dad,he Told Me He Phoned Some Ringer In East Kilbride A Million Miles Away It Seems From Where I Live But The Matter I Want To Bring Up Is.these Two Were Walking On The Reeds Annoying All The Other Birds About 50 Or More Common Snipe Flew Up From One Spot Which They Were Not Interested In And I Just Wonder If You Disrespect Nature In This Way Why Would Snipes Of Any Name Or Birds Of Any Name Want To Seek Refuge Here.i Just Think Disturbance Like This For Your Own Information Is Uncalled For.what Do You Think.
 
Your post is not clear about the nature of the disturbance being perpetrated. Were the people walking the patch encroaching on a restricted area? Were they trying to catch Jack Snipe at the time? If this area is open to incursion by people (and especially their dogs) I see nothing wrong walking-up the ground trying to ring a bird about which little is known.

Some years 50 ago I caught and ringed a Jack Snipe by the walk-up technique. It was subsequently shot later that winter, having meanwhile crossed the Irish Sea. One might just conclude that Jack Snipe need protection from hunters rather than from ringers :(
 
I happen to know (and have caught Jack Snipe with) the ringer in question, so I have some grasp of the situation. The disturbance caused by ringing effort is something which is considered ahead of starting any new ringing project, and I believe the Jack Snipe project in N Lanarkshire is no exception. The birds' short term response to wardens, visitors and (as has been proven) ringers, is to flush a short distance rather than leave the site. In the long-term, the birds return to Cathkin Marsh and Wishaw year on year, in good numbers, so long-term disturbance from ringing seemingly doesn't happen.

Ringers also can't just ring a site if a visitor suggests it, they need the permission of the landowners and kind cooperation of the wardens, and this is the situation at Wishaw.

Only a fraction of the JSnipe present on the site are reached by the nets as well. Further to John's post above, it's a shame hunters can and do shoot JSnipe, BUT the BTO would get next to no return on ringing data without the co-operation of those who send in ring numbers of birds they shot. Some key findings of JSnipe migratory movements have come out of that.
 
hi to those who replied.i need to clarify what i was saying.i am not against ringing birds.it is information that we can use and need to protect and help birds,as for ringing a site without permission,i said i had spoken to the ranger who told me about the ringing in the first place.so they had permission.the incident i was talking about happened a week after and all i am saying is if people are walking in reed beds frequently disturbing birds to check if theirs more jack snipe.would you want to seek refuge there.as for dogs and walkers,i have lived here all my life and the pathways which were made are more or less always walked because everywhere else is boggy.as for shotting i am against no matter what.all the best margaret.
 
You obviously know the area well, Margaret, so perhaps you can say if dog-walkers keep their animals on a lead to prevent them from disturbing wildlife. Uncontrolled roaming by dogs is the most wildlife-damaging activity in any natural environment. If you are concerned about disturbance, this is the worst activity of all.
 
thank you for your reply john.i am new to birding and have my opinions which may or may not change as the years go by.as for dog owners,i am one myself but you get good one,s and bad one,s.the gentlemen i had mentioned in my first quote i have seen three times in the past three days walking the reeds looking for more jack snipe but today as i was feeding the swans i stood and watched as the snipe flew up,i watched the men walk away and probably 10 minutes or less of them leaving the snipe flew back to the same spot as if nothing had bothered them infact i got a video i am posting on bf tv and i now walk by that area and watch for jack snipe but i might add i stick to the path but who knows that might change and i will be standing in the reeds searching.all the best margaret.
 
mags1967 said:
... as for dog owners,i am one myself but you get good one,s and bad one,s...
Click to expand...

Indeed, Margaret. But the problem is that even 99+% good owners still leaves too many bad ones, when you have many people with dogs using a site. One rogue animal can cause mayhem in a breeding area for colonial birds, allowing gulls and crows to predate temporarily undefended nests. For birds like Skylarks that rely on being out of sight when they walk to and from their nests hidden in grass, getting scared directly up from their eggs or chicks by a dog allows any watching crows, Magpies etc. to pinpoint the location. And crows and Magpies have learned to carefully watch out-of-control dogs.
 
dear john i take it you are not a dog owner.as i said the people walking here keep their dogs under control.maybe not for the reasons we would like but because the area is very boggy and they dont want to be washing their dogs everytime they walk them.not all people are bird lovers or are uneducated about birds but most of the people here appreciate this little nature reserve we have here and try to take care of it.as for skylarks,meadow pipits and pheasant to name only a few ground nesting birds they all thrive here and can be seen in good quantity for a small area.all the best margaret.
 
Hi

From your posts it quite clear your are referring to me and my dad. I was the first birder to identify jack snipe at perchy pond, Wishaw. I imformed someone I know from the clyde ringing group as they do constant effort monitoring of Jack Snipe and ringing at a site near Cathkin Braes. I have only ever walked along the edge of a small section of the reedbed, part of the western side of the pond. I spent less than 10 minutes doing this, and only 3 times this winter. The snipe flushed 30 yards across the pond and as you have mentioned, return 10 mintutes later. There was 20+ jack snipe on the first visit which I reported to clydebirds and the ringer. These birds are generally scarce in the clyde area so large numbers make this an important site for this species. I had a spare hour between Christmas and new year so I decided to see if any of the Jack Snipe had stayed to winter as most birds in this area are just migrants stopping on their way south.
 
hi perchy pond birder.you are clear by your post that it must have been you and your dad and if you read my post i am not against ringing of birds information that can help any animal is ok by me but i notice at the end of your remark most birds are just migrants but you have to take into account the resident birds here too.i mean you no badness with this.i think it,s great you care about birds but maybe my mind and yours works different.i have lived here all my life and this is new to me,i have seen you twice since the ringing.this pond is somewhere i grew up and hope it can be important to wildlife just like it has been important to me.margaret.
 
Just a few generals thoughts here, I dont know the ringers or the area in question.

I suppose I'm rather naive when it comes to sientific ornithology, but I have a great dislike for research that is "invasive" in any way. I understand that ringing etc. gives a lot of data, but I always ask myself: Does this really help birds (or any other animal for that matter), or is it just to earn academic merits or to satisfy curiosity?
Theoreticaly knowledge can help in protection of birds, but all the data in the world wont help if you want to explain to that farmer that he should stop manuring that meadow, because the young of Vanellus vanellus will not be able to move and feed, if the grass grows to soon and to tall. Here, for me, there are the real limitacions of protecting birds, and maybe not so much in a lack of knowlegde.

Just some thought's, I might be wrong.
RAPP
 
As a ringer, I agree with you Huginrapp. Personally, the question I ask on seeing an opportunity to get into a new site and do some ringing is, 'what can be learned from doing this?' Similarly, 'will I be able to repeat this ringing activity for the number of weeks a year, and number of years, necessary for the data to mean something substantial?' If there's doubt over either question, nothing goes ahead. Clearly, although not carrying out the work yourself, you are asking these same questions of the work you read about/see in progress, and that is only a good thing.

'Does it help birds?' - in terms of the BTO scheme, the main purpose over much of its history so far has been for highlighting bird migratory routes to scientists. That has without a doubt done much for birds. In an era of hi-tech tracking studies, e.g. the cuckoos study, ringing's role in this pursuit has become less agreed-upon. However studies of survival rates and productivity of a range of bird species continue to be made possible and easily affordable only through ringing ('Constant Effort Site' and 'Retrapping Adults for Survival' projects, BTO). These studies also help birds for obvious reasons, and the proper dissemination of data from these studies to scientists is ensured by the way it is organized. It could be argued from the above that if there's no survival or productivity element then ringing is no longer so necessary...
 
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....

'Is it just to earn academic merits...' - Some ringing studies are carried out by students in training to become scientists, but those projects should be and largely are, still scientifically relevant. A funded studentship involving ringing etc. wouldn't get funded if it was of no scientific use. Also, just like a learner driver drives a real car, you have to give a trainee demographic ornithologist real rings and birds.

'...or satisfy curiosity?' - All scientific endeavour carried out by Man has been to satisfy a curiosity surely! If I assume you refer to a passing curiosity about say, how many woodpeckers breed in this wood, then yes there are non-invasive ways to find that out like visual surveys and an ornithologist should realise that before applying ringing. If you refer to curiosity about birds' appearance in the hand, then yes that is not a reason to be ringing, and the Ringing Standards Subcommittee reprimand individuals seen to be going after rarities just so they can handle them.

As for your last paragraph, that is a massive deal to me too. Lobbying and campaigning organizations like RSPB are needed to try and get policymakers and landowners to listen to scientists, it's a horrible big battle of its own.
 
my comment was posted about the disturbance to my local pond for jack snipe.since january when this happened.i have not seen dogs,man or anything else in the reed beds disturbing the birds and i am here everyday.you mention learner drivers so you allow learners to disturb habitat which nests alot of different species.i think ringing can give us good information but should be done responsibly and if you keep disturbing these jack snipe every year you and your learners and followers we will have no more jack snipe here.
 
Ringers/Nest recorders always seen to get abuse of some kind, done right and under BTO guidelines both these study's give us a wealth of information.

Damian.
 
mags1967 said:
you mention learner drivers so you allow learners to disturb habitat which nests alot of different species.i think ringing can give us good information but should be done responsibly and if you keep disturbing these jack snipe every year you and your learners and followers we will have no more jack snipe here.
Click to expand...

I think you are getting hold of the wrong end of the stick, Margaret. The training of a ringer is long, and is undertaken by an authorised trainer. No learner would be allowed to undertake any ringing without the trainer being present to direct the operation.
 
After 68 years ringing and nest recording two species, Great and Blue Tit, Wytham Wood is still providing new data and PhD's. There can never be a time, in scientific studies, when we can claim to know everything.
http://www.zoo.ox.ac.uk/egi/research-at-the-egi/study-sites/
Ringing / colour ringing is constantly refining our knowledge, producing novel information and raising new questions. Nest recording is the only way to study the long term breeding of birds ( Counting singing males only records that, not breeding. Fledged broods? That only records the maximum possible successful broods - some of which may have bred elsewhere - and says nothing about failure rates ). Until 'non-invasive' methodologies can be formulated , or we say "We don't want to learn anymore about species", ringing and nest recording are the only ways we are going to gather information that may be vital to the preservation of our avifauna.
 
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