Jacques Bernard Hombron (1 Viewer)

Taphrospilus · Jan 26, 2017

I open an extra thread as in here...

Calalp said:
Link Hombron, Jacques Bernard (1800-1852)?

... wasn't only Hombron discussed.

As per today HBW Alive:

hombroni

Jacques Bernard Hombron (1800-1852) French surgeon naturalist in the Pacific 1837-1840 (Actenoides, syn. Chalcophaps stephani).

As in Collection building in ichthyology and herpetology p. 66 Extract here:

Hombron, Jacques Bernard (1798-1852) Born on 15 April 1798 in Paris. Naval surgeon from 1821. After being stationed in Guadeloupe, then the port of Brest, he took part as surgeon- major on the Astrolabe during the voyage to the South Pole and Oceania under the command of J. S. C Dumont d'Urville (1837-1840). Employed in Paris at at the Museum from 1840 to 1848 to attend to the collections brought back by the expedition, he participated in the publication of the voyage by Dumont d'Urville. After two cruises between 1848 and 1850, he was appointed s assistant chief physician in Senegal in 1851; he stayed there a short while and died aboard the Ferdinand while sailing back to France, on 16 October 1852.

I support the year 1798 as birth date. See also here p. 33 of 51 birth 26 Germinal an VI in 6 Arrondissement Paris. I think this time the The Eponym Dictionary of Birds here is correct.

Björn Bergenholtz · Jan 26, 2017

Well done Martin!

This claim (born "1798") is also supported by other, even more recent books, as in (for example) Discovery of Australia's Fishes: A History of Australian Ichthyology to 1930, by Brian Saunders 2012 (here) and New Zealand Lizards, by David G. Chapple [Ed.], 2016 (here).

If correct is unknown to me (but it sure looks like it)! The birth year "1800" is mentioned in many more, by far, in numerous books, articles, papers and all over. Why is a mystery (at least to me). But I think (I haven´t checked my notes, I´m not at "work" right now) that he was said to have been "37" when he boarded Astrolabe for his Pacific adventure (hence concluded to have been born that year) ... this said with reservation for my sometimes failing memory.

In any case I guess James agreed, today's updated HBW Alive Key tells us:

hombroni
Surgeon-Maj. Jacques Bernard Hombron (1798-1852) French Navy, surgeon naturalist in the Pacific 1837-1840 (Actenoides, syn. Chalcophaps stephani).

Cheers!

Björn

PS. Mr. Hombron is on my list of future eponyms to check later on, commemorated in Hombron's Kingfisher Actenoides hombroni (in Swedish, since 2015; hombronkungsfiskare). If I find anything contradictory I will post it in this thread, even if I doubt it, this far. After this quick glance it looks like a "case closed" ...

Taphrospilus · Jan 27, 2017

Felicia

As the key claims:

Félicie Hombron (fl. 1838) wife of French surgeon-naturalist Jacques B. Hombron (syn. Chrysoena luteovirens).

I was wondering from OD how we come to the conclusion that the dedication is for his wife. But I found it now here. But it would be nice to find her dates.

Additional...

jacquinoti

Vice-Adm. Charles Hector Jacquinot (1796-1879) French explorer in the Pacific 1837-1840 (Ninox, Pachycephala (ex “Pie-grièche à masque noir” of Hombron & Jacquinot 1843)).

Why is Ninox jacquinoti not dedicated to Honoré Jacquinot (1815–1887), French surgeon and zoologist. Here OD. I think Honoré worked with Hombron on zoology and especially on birds. Anyway the same question about Pachycephala jacquinoti here OD. The Eponym Dictionary of Birds see both as possible here with a tendency to Honoré.

l_raty · Jan 27, 2017

Taphrospilus said:
But I found it now here.

Strictly speaking, this text doesn't make it clear that Félicie was his wife, however. She could be his mother.

Taphrospilus · Jan 27, 2017

l_raty said:
Strictly speaking, this text doesn't make it clear that Félicie was his wife, however. She could be his mother.

...or sister or aunt etc.

and on jacquinoti remember....

l_raty said:
or simply formed the name 'mechanistically' by changing the ending of the species-group name, is in any case hard to tell).

..even we do not talk about a species-group.

l_raty · Jan 27, 2017

Taphrospilus said:
...or sister or aunt etc.

Not sister. A sister would be "mademoiselle" -- or, if "madame", that would be followed by the name of her husband.

Taphrospilus said:
Why is Ninox jacquinoti not dedicated to Honoré Jacquinot (1815–1887), French surgeon and zoologist. Here OD. I think Honoré worked with Hombron on zoology and especially on birds. Anyway the same question about Pachycephala jacquinoti here OD. The Eponym Dictionary of Birds see both as possible here with a tendency to Honoré.

Both are possible for the owl, I would say. In the second case at least, I'd favour Honoré as well (under the assumption that the two names hombroni and jacquinoti refer to Hombron and Jacquinot, as in the reference "Hombr. et Jacq. Voy. Pole Sud. Ois." that Bonaparte had just cited).

What is the argument to make any of these Pachycephala names available from Bonaparte's Conspectus...?? Bonaparte's text is merely a question, asking which one of the 6 figures on plate 5 and plate 6 of the Atlas should be designated by one of these (or other similar) names. He suggests 3 names for 6 birds, followed by 'etc.'; he does NOT associate any of these names to a figure in particular; he does NOT use them as valid.

l_raty · Jan 27, 2017

l_raty said:
What is the argument to make any of these Pachycephala names available from Bonaparte's Conspectus...?? Bonaparte's text is merely a question, asking which one of the 6 figures on plate 5 and plate 6 of the Atlas should be designated by one of these (or other similar) names. He suggests 3 names for 6 birds, followed by 'etc.'; he does NOT associate any of these names to a figure in particular; he does NOT use them as valid.

Additionally, how is it possible that:
- the current valid name of the Tongan Whistler is the second of the 3 names suggested by Bonaparte in the Conspectus (jacquinoti), which evidently assumes that this name was proposed for the second of the 6 cited figures, and takes precedence over melanops Pucheran 1853 [OD], based on the same figure; BUT
- the bird in the third cited figure currently goes by the valid name orioloides Pucheran 1853 [OD], which is possible only if the third name suggested by Bonaparte (astrolabi) was not proposed for this figure...?

(The source of this absurd situation [as per H&M3 & 4] seems to be
duPont JE. 1976. South Pacific birds. Delaware Mus Nat Hist, Greenville, Delaware (USA).
Anyone with an access to this?)

njlarsen · Jan 27, 2017

I don't know if you have seen this: http://www.delmnh.org/scientific-publications/

Niels

Mike Earp · Jan 27, 2017

l_raty said:
(The source of this absurd situation [as per H&M3 & 4] seems to be duPont JE. 1976. South Pacific birds. Delaware Mus Nat Hist, Greenville, Delaware (USA).
Anyone with an access to this?)

Laurent

See attached scan of page 155 of duPont.

Mike

mb1848 · Jan 27, 2017

Not sure this helps but Charles Hector Jacquinot (1796-1879) was the older half brother of Honoré Jacquinot (1815–1887) same father but different mother . He was a natural son. Jacques Bernard Hombron (1798–1852) and Charles Jacquinot were the authors/editors of Voyage au Pole Sud et dans Oceane? They all three were on la Zelee. Actually an article states Honore Jacquinot was on L' Astrolab and Élie Jean François Le Guillou was naturaliste on la Zelee.
http://www.nadsdiptera.org/News/FlyTimes/issue53.pdf . Page 21.

l_raty · Jan 27, 2017

Mike Earp said:
See attached scan of page 155 of duPont.

Thanks Mike. :t: So, duPont wrote:

Although it is true that Bonaparte did not give a description of jacquinoti, he attached the name to a reference to a published figure of the bird, and this suffices to make the name available under Article 16 of the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature.

What Bonaparte wrote, is this:

Quid Pachycephalae species, Hombr. et Jacq. Voy. Pole Sud. Ois. t. 5. 1. 2. 3. et t. 6. 1. 2. 3. ex Ins. Oceaniae, nominibus P. hombroni, P. jacquinoti, P. astrolabi, etc., designandae ?

This translates, literally, as:

"Which species of Pachycephala, Hombr. et Jacq. Voy. Pole Sud. Ois. t. 5. 1. 2. 3. et t. 6. 1. 2. 3. from the Islands of Oceania, are to be designated by the names P. hombroni, P. jacquinoti, P. astrolabi, etc. ?"

I disagree that "he attached the name to a reference to a published figure of the bird" describes this faithfully. Attaching a name to something would have been an act; he merely asked a question, which is fundamentally different from acting. In this question, he did not even associate "the name" to a reference to a published figure of "the bird"; he associated *three names* to a reference to *six published figures* of *six different birds*, without making any of them specifically attached to one of the figures. Additionally, he clearly did not treat any of these names as the valid name of a taxon, nor even as a synonyms of another name that he would have treated as the valid name of a taxon, which means that none of these names could ever be treated as available.

It seems most likely that this question was prompted by a sentiment that the time since the publication of the figures (in 1842) was starting to be a bit long (1850...), and was mainly intended to urge the authors of the Atlas to finally give these birds a valid scientific name (so that he or someone else would not have to name them 'hombroni', 'jacquinoti', or something else in the same vein). If he had intended to name the birds, he'd have done it. He did not.

I presume duPont 1976 did not cover P. orioloides ?

Mike Earp · Jan 27, 2017

l_raty said:
I presume duPont 1976 did not cover P. orioloides ?

Correct, he did not.

Mike

Taphrospilus · Aug 5, 2017

A link from Honoré Jacquinot and Jacques Pucheran back to Bonapartes suggested names in Conspectus generum avium might came from Athene jacquinoti and Pachycephala jacquinoti the description of the plates. Maybe they made them valid?

Anyway why should be Charles Hector Jacquinot the author? On the title page it is just written Zoologie par MM. Hombron et Jacquinot. OK, Hombron died before 1853 and therefore the birds and mammals are published by Honoré Jacquinot and Jacques Pucheran. I do not see that the capitaine was involved in the publication (even of the plates). Therefore I doubt that any of the birds are dedicated to Charles Hector Jacquinot as mentioned in the key. But of course we do not know Bonapartes intention. And as Hombron (naturalist) was honored as well by Bonaparte I think is another indication that Honoré (naturalist) is meant to be the person.

Taphrospilus · Jan 18, 2018

mb1848 said:
Honoré Jacquinot (1815–1887)

At least the year of birth can be questioned as here is written:

Son frère, M. Honoré Jacquinot, né le 1er août 1814, à Moulins-Engilbert (Nièvre), fit également partie du voyage de la Zélée, en qualité de chirurgien de marine.

But I haven't checked archive en ligne.

Taphrospilus · Aug 13, 2021

Taphrospilus said:
Felicia

As the key claims:

Taphrospilus said:
I was wondering from OD how we come to the conclusion that the dedication is for his wife. But I found it now here. But it would be nice to find her dates.

The Eponym Dictionary of Birds did not solve her life dates/maiden name either.

Golden Fruit Dove Columba felicia Hombron & Jacquinot, 1841 NCR [JS Ptilinopus luteovirens]
Madame Félice Hombron (DNF) was the wife of Dr Jacques Hombron.

According filae they might have married in Brest.

PScofield · Aug 13, 2021

Jacques-Bernard Hombron
Spouse
Louise-Félicité Moreau
Spouse's Birth Date
26 Novembre 1803
Spouse's Birth Place Brest

Marriage	1 May 1830 Brest

Taphrospilus · Aug 13, 2021

Here p. 47 the record of the marriage tells us born 4 Frimaire XII. So as #16. According filae I would say died as well in Brest (registered as her maiden name). And here she died 17 May 1892 (assume as hier) in Brest.

Louise-Félicité Hombron née Moreau (1803-1892)

Taphrospilus · Aug 15, 2021

Anyway here some evidence it is for her.The plate with no scientific name.

Cette Colombe, que nos voyageurs ont dédiée à madame Hombron, est originaire des îles Viti (Balaou).

Apart from etymology I am actually a little bit confused regarding the code and Voyage au Pôle Sud et dans l'Océanie, sur les corvettes "l'Astrolabe" et "la Zélée". I mean not only birds but also e.g. Lobodon carcinophaga Hombron & Jacquinot, 1842 sure the plate here might be considered as OD but the text here. I feel the text from Hombron & Jacquinot is much more later and therefore I feel they are not authors but Werner & Lebreton might be considered as authors. As well not Hombron but Pucheran here. Other examples Liolaemus magellanicus Hombron & Jacquinot, 1847. Why? Can't follow the logic here

Jacquinot, H. & Guichenot, A. 1853. Reptiles et poissons. In: HOMBRON & JACQUINOT, Zoologie 3, in: Dumont d’Urville, Voyage au Pole Sud et dans l’Oranie sur les corvettes “l’Astrolabe” et “la Zélée”, ... Gide &J. Baudry, Paris, 56 pp. [According to Sherborn & Woodward (1901), the text is dated as 1853, but Plate 2 of the Reptiles appeared in 1848] - get paper here

Text here & plate here . In this case even less understanding why 1848. No scientific name on the plate. I personally would see it as Liolaemus magellanicus Jacquinot & Guichenot, 1853

I am aware neither a bird nor an etymology question.

mb1848 · Aug 15, 2021

"Anyway here some evidence it is for her."
But that also includes information why it is not named for her. The savages held these birds in affection. Maybe why Louise-Felicite bird was named C. felicia not felicitae? Also Columbe de Felicie in French?

l_raty · Aug 16, 2021

Taphrospilus said:
Apart from etymology I am actually a little bit confused regarding the code and Voyage au Pôle Sud et dans l'Océanie, sur les corvettes "l'Astrolabe" et "la Zélée". I mean not only birds but also e.g. Lobodon carcinophaga Hombron & Jacquinot, 1842 sure the plate here might be considered as OD but the text here. I feel the text from Hombron & Jacquinot is much more later and therefore I feel they are not authos but Werner & Lebreton might be considered as authors. As well not Hombron but Pucheran here.

...But "Zoologie, par MM. Hombron et Jacquinot" is given on the main title page of the work here.
Hombron & Jacquinot were (initially, at least) the main authors of the Zoologie of this voyage, and were publishing parts of it when the atlas appeared. They are generally accepted as the author of the Zoologie, to the exception of parts that are given another authorship.

BTW, the 1853 bird names are nowadays usually attributed to Pucheran alone, despite H. Jacquinot was made an author on the title page. (Based on the introduction, it would appear that Jacquinot had ceased working on zoology at the time the work was written; his main contribution was to pass manuscript notes to Pucheran. Pucheran then latinized the names used in the atlas, and wrote the texts using Jacquinot's notes as one of his sources.)

I know this has been proposed occasionally, but I'm generally uncomfortable with attributing a name appearing in the caption of a plate to the artist who painted the image, unless the artist was also clearly responsible for the caption as well. (Which is not the case here.) Besides -- why Werner & Lebreton (who did the painting) rather than Duménil (who did the engraving, and as such may have been the first who actually placed the name next to the illustration) ? Should "Hombron et Jacquinot" be deemed unacceptable, I would be more inclined to treat the names in the atlas as proposed anonymously.

Taphrospilus said:
Other examples Liolaemus magellanicus Hombron & Jacquinot, 1847. Why? Can't follow the logic here

Text here & plate here . In this case even less understanding why 1848. No scientific name on the plate. I personally would see it as Liolaemus magellanicus Jacquinot & Guichenot, 1853

This one is obviously incorrect. The vernacular on the plate has no standing. The first latinization seems to be Proctotretus magellanicus Duméril & Duméril 1851 here. (This is earlier than Jacquinot & Guichenot 1853.)

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