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Is avian taxonomy still dependent on ongoing specimen collection? (1 Viewer)

...besides, the Crowned Slaty-Flycatcher was photographed in the field before being collected, which should put to rest any suspicion of fraud: https://www.aba.org/nab/v62n4p638.pdf

And I fully agree with Morgan in post 39 about Mckaybailey's post being taken wildly out of context - if you read his full post, I think it is quite clear that he feels collecting is unjustified in cases where it would endanger a population
 
If somone has already mentioned it, my apologies - one thing that I can't find discussed yet is the appalling example set to the local population: "We want you to stop hunting on your own land even though you've been doing it for generations, but we are going to hunt on your land anyway, whether you like it on not".

Once the local people discover what's been done, they're not going to welcome further researchers, either. Maybe they might 'collect' them instead - well and good for them if they do :t:
 
If somone has already mentioned it, my apologies - one thing that I can't find discussed yet is the appalling example set to the local population: "We want you to stop hunting on your own land even though you've been doing it for generations, but we are going to hunt on your land anyway, whether you like it on not".

Once the local people discover what's been done, they're not going to welcome further researchers, either. Maybe they might 'collect' them instead - well and good for them if they do :t:
I heard about such a situation -possibly in New Guinea?- where researchers collected plants and trees from a reserve.
 
To suggest the collection of the kingfisher is going to help protect the uplands of Guadalcanal is bordering on bonkers.

cheers, alan

:clap: :t:that's the one. Let 'em be while they've still got any forest left. We already know only too well what they need.
 
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Rather than link, I have cut and paste Paul Sweet's post from the Kingfisher thread below. I'll be reading the two articles linked and in particular the first as though I'm familiar with specimen collection and consider it inescapable in many fields of nature study, at the moment, I do not consider it is necessary in ornithology. That may be as a result of ignorance on my part.... I confess an emotional reaction. I know many that have travelled the world widely seeing birds and finding species new to science. I have not. I know a number of people who have found species new to science in different fields. It is with some personal regret that my interest has been localised and amateur. I have only visited Tring once - to look at Amur Wagtail skins - but I did a little looking around the collection. How can anyone pull out a drawer of dead Gurney's Pittas without having an emotional reaction?

I've been trying to post the following to OB but can't seem to get a message through so here is my posting.

Dear All

As a member of the team on the recent Guadalcanal expedition I feel obliged to say a few words in response to the recent comments on OB and elsewhere.

This expedition was an multi-disciplinary biodiversity survey of the poorly known highlands of Guadalcanal. The expedition team consisted of over 30 scientists from the Solomon Islands, Fiji, Vanuatu, New Zealand, Australia, Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Taiwan, Japan, the UK and the USA. Also participating and instrumental to this work were the Uluna-Sutahuri people, the owners and guardians of this land. Much of the Solomon Islands are threatened by logging and mining interests and the Uluna-Sutahari are working towards establishing a protected area on their lands. As part of our surveys specimens were collected: ferns, orchids, dragonflies, ants, fishes, lizards, frogs, bats and yes, birds. It goes without saying that all this is fully permitted and endorsed by the Solomon Islands’ government. It should not come as a surprise to OB members that scientific collecting is ongoing, and now more than ever documenting biodiversity is critical for conservation (see many papers published in Forktail for example). In the last two decades there are very few countries in the OB region that have not permitted judicious collecting by natural history museums and universities. Sadly there seems to be a lack of understanding of the importance of such collecting for basic research as well as conservation. I’m not going to go into the general importance of collecting here, but will refer readers to some references. Regarding birds see Remsen http://bit.ly/1O5LErc and for more on the general importance of specimen collection see Rocha et al. http://biology.unm.edu/Witt/pub_files/Science-2014-Rocha-814-5.pdf .

On the status of the species in question, it has been classified as Endangered by IUCN and Birdlife http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/species/factsheet/22726883 with the caveats that “ further research may reveal it to be more common” and “there are no data on population trends”. From data provided by David Gibbs an estimate of some 1500 individuals was proposed. Given the amount of suitable habitat within the elevational range of this species (900 to at least 1500 m) this is probably a low estimate. Several individuals were seen and heard (and recorded by Frank Lambert) along an approximately 2 km trail at 1200 to 1400 m. A quick look at Google Earth will show that the habitat at this elevation is undisturbed and consists of at least 20% of the land area of Guadalcanal (total 5,302 km2). With this information we decided that collecting a specimen would have no long term effect on the population.

The charge of trophy collection shows a lack of understanding of the value of museum specimens. The AMNH collections are heavily used by ornithologists from around the world for a huge range of projects. As an example anyone who uses a field guide or consults a monograph is a direct beneficiary of specimen collecting. All taxonomy is based on specimens, including for example the recent HBW taxonomy, for which Nigel Collar has extensively used our collections. As far as immediate information goes we can now properly describe the previously unknown male plumage and compare this to the Bougainville bird which will inform us on its species status. Also of interest, is the higher level relationship of the Melanesian taxa placed in Actenoides to the others found far to the west in the Philippines and Indonesia. With high quality genetic samples this relationship can now be elucidated by comparing DNA sequence to existing data (also obtained from specimen collection). Allegations of pseudo-science are also unfounded. I give the following two examples of specimen based science papers that may be of interest to OB members and that were authored by two members of our team http://bit.ly/1RiFxjd & http://bit.ly/1WAlBvn

Finally I would like to inform readers that to my knowledge no one has done more than Chris Filardi for bird conservation in the Solomon Islands. Chris has been involved in working with local people to set up community based conservation areas in critical sites for endemic birds for example the Imbu Rano lodge on Kolombangara. http://www.kolombangara.org/imbu-rano-lodge

Folks if you really care about conservation you should be attacking logging, agribusiness and mining interests that are the real threat to biodiversity in Melanesia, not naturalist biologists who actively working to save it.

Respectfully, Paul Sweet

All the best
 
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Happy to see a population estimate: I'd like to see such statements more often in articles involving collected birds.

I agree with his last paragraph.
 
I've said it before but I'll try once more - given that Alan has spent the last few days excitedly labouring the same points again and again and again... ;)

We all know that it's completely unnecessary to kill and eat animals - it's just an indulgent (albeit often traditional) lifestyle choice. So how does low-level sustainable scientific collecting compare with, say, commercial fishing? Anyone who enjoys eating wild-caught marine fish is condoning the trawling of the oceans for huge tonnages of wild vertebrates, with the by-catch thrown overboard (dead), and massive destruction of seabed communities (dead). Given the crude methods, even so-called 'sustainable' fishing is inevitably still largely indiscriminate, with unwanted species discarded (dead).

I have some respect for those objecting to scientific collecting who are committed vegetarians (and eschew unnecessary air travel, frequent ridiculous motorway journeys to twitch vagrant birds etc etc). But anyone who protests about the collecting of a few, sometimes 'cute', birds whilst continuing to enjoy their fish n chips is a complete hypocrite.
 
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So how does low-level sustainable scientific collecting compare with, say, commercial fishing?
Objectively, it doesn't compare at all. It just ADDS to.

Are all those who try to limit carbon emissions just complete hypocrites because they continue breathing?
 
I've said it before but I'll try once more - given that Alan has spent the last few days excitedly labouring the same points again and again and again... ;)

We all know that it's completely unnecessary to kill and eat animals - it's just an indulgent (albeit often traditional) lifestyle choice. So how does low-level sustainable scientific collecting compare with, say, commercial fishing? Anyone who enjoys eating wild-caught marine fish is condoning the trawling of the oceans for huge tonnages of wild vertebrates, with the by-catch thrown overboard (dead), and massive destruction of seabed communities (dead). Given the crude methods, even so-called 'sustainable' fishing is inevitably still largely indiscriminate, with unwanted species discarded (dead).

I have some respect for those objecting to scientific collecting who are committed vegetarians (and eschew unnecessary air travel, frequent ridiculous motorway journeys to twitch vagrant birds etc etc). But anyone who protests about the collecting of a few, sometimes 'cute', birds whilst continuing to enjoy their fish n chips is a complete hypocrite.

Well said. Sums up my views exactly.
 
Well said. Sums up my views exactly.
And I couldn't disagree more.
You are attempting to justify the continuation of a potentially negative activity by the existence of another, independent activity, that you claim to be worse. If the two actions have independent effects, this is plain flawed logic, period.
A justification to collecting should be sought in its own merits only.
 
Objectively, it doesn't compare at all. It just ADDS to.

Are all those who try to limit carbon emissions just complete hypocrites because they continue breathing?
It takes a very committed environmentalist to choose to stop breathing! It's relatively easy to avoid eating marine fish or to reduce one's travel when demanding the cessation of scientific collecting.
 
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But anyone who protests about the collecting of a few, sometimes 'cute', birds whilst continuing to enjoy their fish n chips is a complete hypocrite.

A charge of hypocrisy surely requires some strong reversed link between the stated belief and the exhibited behaviour.

..so stating "I think drinking alchohol is wrong" while drinking a glass of wine is hypocrisy.

Stating "collection of this kingfisher specimen is unnacceptable in the 21st century" while eating fish and chips is not. Despite the fact that both involve the death of an organism, there is no equivalence, for reasons obvious to most.

cheers, alan
 
I've said it before but I'll try once more - given that Alan has spent the last few days excitedly labouring the same points again and again and again... ;)
.

The same points keep being rebutted, but only because the same flawed justifications, eg conservation prerequisite, field guide theory and DNA sampling keep being used by the same professional collectors and museum workers on this thread.

cheers, alan
 
Despite the fact that both involve the death of an organism, there is no equivalence, for reasons obvious to most.
The reason isn't particularly obvious to me! One provides transient pleasure to a diner and in many cases causes irreversible depletion of populations (and probably also requires the collateral deaths of numerous other organisms); the other provides a lasting study resource available to the global scientific/ornithological community.
 
The reason isn't particularly obvious to me! One provides transient pleasure to a diner and in many cases causes irreversible depletion of populations (and probably also requires the collateral deaths of numerous other organisms); the other provides a lasting study resource available to the global scientific/ornithological community.

Errrrr, you've just demonstrated the lack of equivalence. The fact that you choose to equate the two, or indeed that the second is preferable, is your value judgement.

cheers, a
 
Errrrr, you've just demonstrated the lack of equivalence. The fact that you choose to equate the two, or indeed that the second is preferable, is your value judgement.
Huh?

So it's OK to sit down to eat a portion of cod, and then write an angry email castigating the collecting of birds, because they're not "equivalent"...?
 
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We all know that it's completely unnecessary to kill and eat animals - it's just an indulgent (albeit often traditional) lifestyle choice. So how does low-level sustainable scientific collecting compare with, say, commercial fishing? Anyone who enjoys eating wild-caught marine fish is condoning the trawling of the oceans for huge tonnages of wild vertebrates, with the by-catch thrown overboard (dead), and massive destruction of seabed communities (dead). Given the crude methods, even so-called 'sustainable' fishing is inevitably still largely indiscriminate, with unwanted species discarded (dead).

At risk of going off-topic, I think you're guilty of some pretty sweeping assumptions here Richard. Sure some fisheries have problems with bycatch or discards, and some fisheries damage parts of the seabed. Increasingly however, these problems are being dealt with and, as a result, fisheries are becoming much more sustainable. If you want to make an informed choice on what to eat with your chips you could do worse than start here: http://www.seafish.org/rass/
 
At risk of going off-topic, I think you're guilty of some pretty sweeping assumptions here Richard. Sure some fisheries have problems with bycatch or discards, and some fisheries damage parts of the seabed. Increasingly however, these problems are being dealt with and, as a result, fisheries are becoming much more sustainable. If you want to make an informed choice on what to eat with your chips you could do worse than start here: http://www.seafish.org/rass/
Yes, but even the most sustainable commercial marine fishing is still unnecessary/deliberate 'collecting' of wild vertebrates - exactly what those who object to scientific collecting are so concerned about.
 
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