What falcons? (1 Viewer)

hans-b · Jan 21, 2017

I took the pictures at Vogelpark Steinen / Lörrach / South Germany, 03.05.2009
#2 could be a Common kestrel (Falco tinnunculus)?
If it is not possible to identify the bird the genus would also be helpful.

Thanks for your help
Hans

www.boeckler.name

Malachi1 · Jan 21, 2017

Hello there

I am no expert but would say the photograph on the left is of a merlin? I couldn't tell you age or gender. I would agree with you on the other being a common kestrel likely to be a maturing male?.. I wouldn't usualy comment but see you have no reply and hopefully I am right.

Best Wishes
Malachi

P.Sunesen · Jan 21, 2017

I would say Lanner to the left, and Common Kestrel adult female on the right.

Peter

Andy Adcock · Jan 21, 2017

Again, captive birds, not allowed......

A

Nutcracker · Jan 21, 2017

Yep, no captive birds, please!

Captive falcons are usually a right mess of hybridisation (with bits of 4 or more species involved), so best regarded as unidentifiable.

tconzemi · Jan 21, 2017

Nutcracker said:
Yep, no captive birds, please!

Captive falcons are usually a right mess of hybridisation (with bits of 4 or more species involved), so best regarded as unidentifiable.

wThese 2 are identifiable but I fully agree NO CAPTIVE BIRDS ON BF

P.Sunesen · Jan 22, 2017

tconzemi said:
wThese 2 are identifiable but I fully agree NO CAPTIVE BIRDS ON BF

Fully agree.

As to Nutty sounding like a broken record (no offense!) there's little substance in the claim that most captive birds (of prey) are hybrids.

My estimation of the thousands of birds in captivity I have seen in my entire life is that only a very small percentage (if not less) aren't pure species.

Certainly these two are as pure as can be, and the right one is thus definitely not a hybrid between a Lesser Kestrel and a Gyr Falon8-P

Peter

tconzemi · Jan 22, 2017

P.Sunesen said:
Fully agree.

As to Nutty sounding like a broken record (no offense!) there's little substance in the claim that most captive birds (of prey) are hybrids.

My estimation of the thousands of birds in captivity I have seen in my entire life is that only a very small percentage (if not less) aren't pure species.

Certainly these two are as pure as can be, and the right one is thus definitely not a hybrid between a Lesser Kestrel and a Gyr Falon8-P

Peter

Peter, in Germany most BOP in captivity are hybrids indeed. Many german falconers are breeding to export birds and you do not need CITES papers for hybrids, but it is a controversial issue and may be stopped one day

P.Sunesen · Jan 22, 2017

tconzemi said:
Peter, in Germany most BOP in captivity are hybrids indeed. Many german falconers are breeding to export birds and you do not need CITES papers for hybrids, but it is a controversial issue and may be stopped one day

Thanks for your answer.

Sorry for my scepticism, but as a taxidermist I do know colleges that have close contact to major German breeders, and there seem to be much more demand for (and business in breeding) pure species.

I shall look into the matter, and try to get to see some statistics.

Please post links if you have facts to back up your and Nutcracker's assertions, cause for me its unlikely that the existence of hybrids between, say, Goshawk and different species should vastly outnumber breeding within the species.

There are (luckily) many species of which I have never seen photos of other than pure ones.
Video scenes of hunting captive raptors would logically reflect the ratio of hybrids to pure species, but when I look up such footage on Utube, I mostly see pure species..........

Certainly there is a mix-up when it comes to subspecies, but please enlighten me if you can back up your knowledge with hard figures.

To conclude: I'm aware of the fact that some hybrids are produced (and may thus escape), but that hybrids should make up the majority of the large number of captive bred raptors of ALL species is IMO very, very unlikely.

Peter

Nutcracker · Jan 22, 2017

Nutcracker said:
Captive falcons are usually a right mess of hybridisation (with bits of 4 or more species involved), so best regarded as unidentifiable.

P.Sunesen said:
...

Please post links if you have facts to back up your and Nutcracker's assertions, cause for me its unlikely that the existence of hybrids between, say, Goshawk and different species should vastly outnumber breeding within the species.

...

Peter

Please note, I did specify falcons (Falco spp. in particular), not raptors in general

I've never heard anything much about captive hybrid Accipitridae, apart from a few Red x Black Kites in zoos (not falconry birds).

tconzemi · Jan 22, 2017

P.Sunesen said:
Thanks for your answer.

I shall look into the matter, and try to get to see some statistics.

Certainly there is a mix-up when it comes to subspecies, but please enlighten me if you can back up your knowledge with hard figures.

To conclude: I'm aware of the fact that some hybrids are produced (and may thus escape), but that hybrids should make up the majority of the large number of captive bred raptors of ALL species is IMO very, very unlikely.

Peter

Hi Peter
first I meant Falcons too, not Raptors in general
here is a summary of a paper published in Limicola that give some key figures: several thousand produced yearly, highly restricted by law since 2005 and from 2015 onwards completely prohibited. I did not know that the problem was solved already, so your assumptions were far better than mine.

We learned both something I guess

https://www.researchgate.net/public...em_of_hybrids_between_large_falcons_Falco_spp

Nutcracker · Jan 22, 2017

tconzemi said:
... several thousand produced yearly, highly restricted by law since 2005 and from 2015 onwards completely prohibited. I did not know that the problem was solved already, ...

Solved in Germany anyway, but not yet elsewhere, according to their abstract; and it'll also take many years yet for old hybrids to filter out of the system even in Germany.

stevethehydra · Jan 22, 2017

I have heard of a few captive-bred hybrids within Accipitridae, including Common Buzzard x Harris Hawk, Common Buzzard x Red-tailed Hawk, Red-tailed Hawk x Ferruginous Hawk, and possibly but not certainly other similar Buteo combinations. However, AFAIK most if not all of these were accidental or experimental "one-offs" (although may have happened more than once - the first two have also happened between escaped hawks and wild Common Buzzards in Europe) rather than breeding on a commercial scale like the popular falcon hybrids such as Peregrine x Lanner, Gyr x Peregrine, Gyr x Saker, etc.

The only one that I have seen being deliberately done for sale (on a falcon breeder's website which also advertised many both "pure" and hybrid large falcons) was Goshawk x (IIRC) Black Sparrowhawk (Accipiter melanoleucus, which despite its name is a Goshawk-sized bird). (I think they said they wanted to breed pure Black Sparrowhawks, but could only get hold of one sex, so while they were waiting to get some of the other sex they were breeding them with Goshawks.)

I have heard of wild hybrids within harriers, Aquila eagles, and (European/Oriental) honey buzzards.

I haven't heard of Kestrels being hybridised with other falcons, which makes me think it might not be possible given how common and easy to get hold of they are (unless falconers don't see any advantage in it because the hunting style of a kestrel is too different from other falcons).

aeshna5 · Jan 22, 2017

Common Buzzard x Harris Hawk has occurred in the wild in the UK on a couple of occasions.

Nutcracker · Jan 23, 2017

stevethehydra said:
I haven't heard of Kestrels being hybridised with other falcons, which makes me think it might not be possible given how common and easy to get hold of they are (unless falconers don't see any advantage in it because the hunting style of a kestrel is too different from other falcons).

Yep - something that hangs in the air and catches a few beetles and the odd mouse is not of great interest to most falconers :-O

stevethehydra · Feb 1, 2017

I found a link to the Goshawk x Black Sparrowhawk hybrids: http://www.falconmews.com/goshawks.html

What falcons? (1 Viewer)

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