Common Diver? - Norway (1 Viewer)

Birdbrain22 said:

While the difference in names is somewhat confusing... the real difficulty I am seeing as I am starting to plan for a probable trip to France is not the difference in name, but are they actually different species to add to life list?

Divers/Loons, Gossander/Merganser, the various Scoters, Firecrest/Golden crowned Kinglet,Euro Coot/American Coot, Euro Oystercatcher/American Oystercatcher, Common Sandpiper/Spotted Sandpiper, Black-necked Grebe/Eared Grebe, Grey Plover/Black-bellied Plover, Semipalmated Plover/Ringed Plover... and more examples.

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Thats where the scientific names come in. Regardless of the local 'common name', scientific names should be consistent globally. Birds with different binomial names (e.g. the homo sapiens, falco peregrinus etc) are different species. If a third name is added to the scientific name (trinomial) you are getting into the realms of subspecies. So, phylloscopus collybita collybita and phylloscopus collybita tristis are different subspecies of the same species.

Birdbrain22 said:

While the difference in names is somewhat confusing... the real difficulty I am seeing as I am starting to plan for a probable trip to France is not the difference in name, but are they actually different species to add to life list?

Divers/Loons, Gossander/Merganser, the various Scoters, Firecrest/Golden crowned Kinglet,Euro Coot/American Coot, Euro Oystercatcher/American Oystercatcher, Common Sandpiper/Spotted Sandpiper, Black-necked Grebe/Eared Grebe, Grey Plover/Black-bellied Plover, Semipalmated Plover/Ringed Plover... and more examples.

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The ones in bold are different species



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You may have determine these but:
Divers/Loons (Same species different names),
Goosander/Common Merganser (same species different names)
the various Scoters (Different species different names; ie. Common Scoter, Black Scoter / Velvet Scoter, White-winged Scoter),
Firecrest/Golden crowned Kinglet (different species),
Euro Coot/American Coot (different Species),
Euro Oystercatcher/American Oystercatcher (different species),
Common Sandpiper/Spotted Sandpiper (different species),
Black-necked Grebe/Eared Grebe (same species different names),
Grey Plover/Black-bellied Plover (Same Species different names), Semipalmated Plover/Ringed Plover (different species)

I don't now what you read to learn, but I have more than a book, more than a guide, more than a list!!! And I have not (sorry) British readings.

nutcracker said it: eBird, Clements, ... There are a lot of American lists too, so it's possible to mix them, especially for an old man like me... :king:

Scientific names? not (always) so useful: do you want to talk about (for example):

• Acanthis cabaret - Acanthis flammea
• Carduelis flammea cabaret - Carduelis flammea flammea

???

And, you know, this is only ONE example.

But guys, thank you for suggestions, and my apologies for my mistake!
39 lashes tonight

cheers

Collins Bird Guide has Goosanders and Mergansers as different species, has this now changed too?

hwinbermuda said:

Collins Bird Guide has Goosanders and Mergansers as different species, has this now changed too?

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Two different species but both types of merganser (their common international English names being Red-breasted and Common Mergansers).

Common Merganser is also known in Britain (and elsewhere in Europe/Asia?) by its vernacular English name: Goosander. In other words this is a local or regional name that differs from other parts of the world in the way it has traditionally named certain species. Traditions can be very hard to change amongst stubborn birders (even in light of new taxonomic advances) especially so it seems, if they are British!

maudoc said:

Scientific names? not (always) so useful: do you want to talk about (for example):

• Acanthis cabaret - Acanthis flammea
• Carduelis flammea cabaret - Carduelis flammea flammea

???

And, you know, this is only ONE example.


cheers

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They are useful so long as you use the most recent nonemclature!

As our understanding of taxonomy increases, then it follows that some species, or groups of species, are placed within a new genus to reflect a different lineage to closely related species with which they used to be grouped.

Hence the redpolls used to belong to the genus Carduelis, but are now grouped within Acanthis.

The names next to your second bullet reflect the fact that cabaret and flammea used to be considered races of one species, but are now classified as two separate species (as you see next to your first bullet).

So that's the only problem with scientific names-they should be consistent if you look at the most recent version of the national/regional list, though it's possible that across the world some bodies will be behind others, at least until they catch up!

Nothing ever stays the same and often for good reason. It's possible that in the future the Redpolls will be 're-lumped' again as one or two species

SteveClifton said:

Two different species but both types of merganser (their common international English names being Red-breasted and Common Mergansers).

Common Merganser is also known in Britain (and elsewhere in Europe/Asia?) by its vernacular English name: Goosander. In other words this is a local or regional name that differs from other parts of the world in the way it has traditionally named certain species. Traditions can be very hard to change amongst stubborn birders (even in light of new taxonomic advances) especially so it seems, if they are British!

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thank you Steve, so long as they leave the mavis and yaffle alone, I should catch on8-P

SteveClifton said:

Two different species but both types of merganser (their common international English names being Red-breasted and Common Mergansers).

Common Merganser is also known in Britain (and elsewhere in Europe/Asia?) by its vernacular English name: Goosander. In other words this is a local or regional name that differs from other parts of the world in the way it has traditionally named certain species. Traditions can be very hard to change amongst stubborn birders (even in light of new taxonomic advances) especially so it seems, if they are British!

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Surely that's another American name, I've always called them Goosanders as has everyone I know?

Second point, this will surely be down to the fact that many of the birds were named before America was even a country!

Nothing to do with stubborn

andyadcock said:

Surely that's another American name, I've always called them Goosanders as has everyone I know?

Second point, this will surely be down to the fact that many of the birds were named before America was even a country!

Nothing to do with stubborn

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It's nothing to do with American names Andy.

In order to try and standardise English names, different taxonomic bodies have come up with various 'solutions' to this. In our (Britain's) case it's the recent adoption of the IOC list by the BOU in Jan 2018. Therefore the official 'IOC World List international English name' is Common Merganser. I'm pretty sure that was also the same with the outgoing BOU list.

Goosander is its English vernacular name-in other words the name British people have traditionally used for the species within our region.

I don't make the rules-just try to understand them!

SteveClifton said:

It's nothing to do with American names Andy.

In order to try and standardise English names, different taxonomic bodies have come up with various 'solutions' to this. In our (Britain's) case it's the recent adoption of the IOC list by the BOU in Jan 2018. Therefore the official 'IOC World List international English name' is Common Merganser. I'm pretty sure that was also the same with the outgoing BOU list.

Goosander is its English vernacular name-in other words the name British people have traditionally used for the species within our region.

I don't make the rules-just try to understand them!

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I think that the perception by many, is that the American preferences are being forced on them, that's where the resentment comes from.

For many, for standardise read Americanise, just wait for the furore if the next edition of Collins has Blue and Great Chickadee!


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andyadcock said:

I think that the perception by many, is that the American preferences are being forced on them, that's where the resentment comes from.

A

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That's not my perception, and FWIW I don't see it that anything is being forced on me. It's not as though people can't still use vernacular names too if they prefer. Long may we continue to hear names like Bonxie and Tystie, as well as us Brits continue to use Diver & Skua if we choose to.

The fact that this thread has got to 31 posts so far, and still so much confusion over which English name to use, is surely proof enough that there is a need for some kind of standardised English naming system. In fact we already have one, even if we resort to using traditional names within our own regions.

What I have a bit of an issue with, if at all, is that there is a tendency amongst some British birders on this forum to correct international users, mainly with respect to using names like loon and jaeger in preference for regional English names such as diver and skua.

Surely that's just a little disrespectful to any non-British people looking in?

SteveClifton said:

That's not my perception, and FWIW I don't see it that anything is being forced on me. It's not as though people can't still use vernacular names too if they prefer. Long may we continue to hear names like Bonxie and Tystie, as well as us Brits continue to use Diver & Skua if we choose to.

The fact that this thread has got to 31 posts so far, and still so much confusion over which English name to use, is surely proof enough that there is a need for some kind of standardised English naming system. In fact we already have one, even if we resort to using traditional names within our own regions.

What I have a bit of an issue with, if at all, is that there is a tendency amongst some British birders on this forum to correct international users, mainly with respect to using names like loon and jaeger in preference for regional English names such as diver and skua.


Surely that's just a little disrespectful to any non-British people looking in?

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On your latter point of view, that's how the names appear in the field guides in Europe, for now at least, the scientific names provide the standardisation, no need to change common mames regionally IMHO.

The fact that they are changing the common names is THE cause for confusion until the field guides implement with the new names. Even then, many, including me will never use the new names in trip reports so not much will change.


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andyadcock said:

On your latter point of view, that's how the names appear in the field guides in Europe, for now at least, the scientific names provide the standardisation, no need to change common mames regionally IMHO.

The fact that they are changing the common names is THE cause for confusion until the field guides implement with the new names. Even then, many, including me will never use the new names in trip reports so not much will change.


A

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Actually Andy, this isn’t always the case, and the standard international names have already been adopted (and for quite some time!) Collins - arguably the most widely used field guide in Europe - uses ‘Loons’ in both paper versions (old and new) for the main species accounts e.g. Red-throated Loon, yet ads ‘Divers’ in brackets after ‘Loons’, but only in the main family heading.
Confusingly, the android version (more recent than both paper versions-with Barn Owl and Arctic Tern covers) uses the same main heading: ‘Loons (Divers)’ then defaults to use ‘Diver’ for each species account e.g. Red-throated Diver, so Collins is not consistent in its use of either loon or diver.

Given that the android version of Collins was developed/published by a British company (spin-off from Birdguides) it should perhaps not be surprising that they defaulted to the English vernacular names in that version, whereas Collins presumably publish paper versions for continental Europe too (or do they?) so prefer to use the international English names as standard in those. It seems to imply this in the introduction in the android version, though to be honest life is too short to check what it says in the other versions!

Confusingly, the same methodology hasn’t been followed for skuas/jaegers in Collins, with all 4 species being called Skuas in both paper versions and in the android version.

I have to confess, like you Andy, that I thought this was an American vs British/European naming difference, but when I checked the latest British List here: https://www.bou.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/british-list-2018-01-08.pdf I discovered that what I assumed were the standard names for Britain/Europe (Diver & Skua) actually were only the vernacular names. As you can see the agreed standard international English names are loon and jaeger (but only for the 3 smaller species, ‘Skua’ is still correct for the larger species such as Great and South Polar).

The recent adoption by BOU brings our national list in line with the IOC World List which also uses Loon & Jaeger as the default names, with an acknowledgement that for the 3 smaller Stercorarius species, ‘skua’ is 'preferred by some'. The same names were also used in the old BOU list, so this is not a new thing, though I’m not sure how long this has been the case?

Clements makes no reference to either ‘diver’ or ‘skua’ in their latest World List, so again, they presumably also treat them as regional/vernacular names.

SteveClifton said:

Actually Andy, this isn’t always the case, and the standard international names have already been adopted (and for quite some time!) Collins - arguably the most widely used field guide in Europe - uses ‘Loons’ in both paper versions (old and new) for the main species accounts e.g. Red-throated Loon, yet ads ‘Divers’ in brackets after ‘Loons’, but only in the main family heading.
Confusingly, the android version (more recent than both paper versions-with Barn Owl and Arctic Tern covers) uses the same main heading: ‘Loons (Divers)’ then defaults to use ‘Diver’ for each species account e.g. Red-throated Diver, so Collins is not consistent in its use of either loon or diver.

Given that the android version of Collins was developed/published by a British company (spin-off from Birdguides) it should perhaps not be surprising that they defaulted to the English vernacular names in that version, whereas Collins presumably publish paper versions for continental Europe too (or do they?) so prefer to use the international English names as standard in those. It seems to imply this in the introduction in the android version, though to be honest life is too short to check what it says in the other versions!

Confusingly, the same methodology hasn’t been followed for skuas/jaegers in Collins, with all 4 species being called Skuas in both paper versions and in the android version.

I have to confess, like you Andy, that I thought this was an American vs British/European naming difference, but when I checked the latest British List here: https://www.bou.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/british-list-2018-01-08.pdf I discovered that what I assumed were the standard names for Britain/Europe (Diver & Skua) actually were only the vernacular names. As you can see the agreed standard international English names are loon and jaeger (but only for the 3 smaller species, ‘Skua’ is still correct for the larger species such as Great and South Polar).

The recent adoption by BOU brings our national list in line with the IOC World List which also uses Loon & Jaeger as the default names, with an acknowledgement that for the 3 smaller Stercorarius species, ‘skua’ is 'preferred by some'. The same names were also used in the old BOU list, so this is not a new thing, though I’m not sure how long this has been the case?

Clements makes no reference to either ‘diver’ or ‘skua’ in their latest World List, so again, they presumably also treat them as regional/vernacular names.

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Must confess that I hadn't even noticed that!

I use the IOC as my World list but when it comes to my British and European lists, there will be no Loons in my house.....well, maybe just the one!

As I said, I really see no need for all this confusion, the scientific name provides the standard, anyone who considers themselves a birder, will always check that when unsure.


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SteveClifton said:

[...] whereas Collins presumably publish paper versions for continental Europe too (or do they?) so prefer to use the international English names as standard in those. It seems to imply this in the introduction in the android version, though to be honest life is too short to check what it says in the other versions!

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Not quite. At least the German 2nd edition, which, in addition to the scientific name, features one (!) English name for each species below the German one, lists the species as "Great Northern Loon" (as I stated above), and lists Gavia arctica as "Black-throated Loon". Which isn't standard of anything, it's just wrong.
Otherwise, they mostly have American names, but not consistently so, e.g. "Parasitic Jaeger", but also "Pomarine Skua".
I don't know if the fault lies with the authors or the publisher; they have a different publishing house over here (Franckh-Kosmos).

Sangahyando said:

Not quite. At least the German 2nd edition, which, in addition to the scientific name, features one (!) English name for each species below the German one, lists the species as "Great Northern Loon" (as I stated above), and lists Gavia arctica as "Black-throated Loon". Which isn't standard of anything, it's just wrong.
Otherwise, they mostly have American names, but not consistently so, e.g. "Parasitic Jaeger", but also "Pomarine Skua".
I don't know if the fault lies with the authors or the publisher; they have a different publishing house over here (Franckh-Kosmos).

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You see guys, all the name changes are even confusing the publishers!


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Sangahyando said:

Not quite. At least the German 2nd edition, which, in addition to the scientific name, features one (!) English name for each species below the German one, lists the species as "Great Northern Loon" (as I stated above), and lists Gavia arctica as "Black-throated Loon". Which isn't standard of anything, it's just wrong.
Otherwise, they mostly have American names, but not consistently so, e.g. "Parasitic Jaeger", but also "Pomarine Skua".
I don't know if the fault lies with the authors or the publisher; they have a different publishing house over here (Franckh-Kosmos).

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Interesting! so even less consistency than the English language versions

SteveClifton said:

. . .The fact that this thread has got to 31 posts so far, and still so much confusion over which English name to use, is surely proof enough that there is a need for some kind of standardised English naming system.

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Au contraire. Vive la difference!

fugl said:

Au contraire. Vive la difference!

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Mais oui, bien sûr!



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