Overall Best Binoculars (1 Viewer)

Alexis Powell said:

Because these new Chinese EDs seem revolutionary in a variety of ways, though few of them to do with the specs of the binos themselves. My interest is in keeping binocuholics honest, to themselves and to nascent binocuholics visiting this forum for advice and perspective, through full disclosure. I realize that I probably share that interest with about 3 other people on earth, but that's what a thread on Birdforum is for!

--AP

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So this makes you feel threatened?

Have the Chinese bins been mis-represented?

Are there specs that I haven't heard of that cause you to immediately judge that they are not as someone stated a 99/33 or 99/25 rated product?

Kevin Conville said:

Denco-
7x42 is the BEST forget the rest. I tried all the configurations and 7x42 blows 8x42's away everyday!

Try a 7x42 Leica BN. Just try them. They are made by god! I assure you.

2nd that! I will never go back to 8x42 binoculars after having 7x42's

I don't know Dennis, if ZEN makes a 7x42 it could be dangerous to your health.

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It makes my pulse go up just thinkIng about it! I liked the Leica 7x42 BN's until I tried the Nikon 8x32 SE's and the Zen Rays 8x43 ED's. They are my two top dogs now until something better comes along. I am always searching for the perfect view.

Dennis

Michael,

You aren't that far from my neck of the woods. In fact I was just down at Middle Creek this past weekend. If there was some way we could get together then you would be more than welcome to give my Zen EDs a go.

For what it is worth, I have only read this page of this thread. After reading some of the comments I am afraid to go back and read the rest.....

Just not in the market.

Thanks

Mike

Posted by Denco-
7x42 is the BEST forget the rest. I tried all the configurations and 7x42 blows 8x42's away everyday!

Try a 7x42 Leica BN. Just try them. They are made by god! I assure you.

2nd that! I will never go back to 8x42 binoculars after having 7x42's

[email protected] said:

It makes my pulse go up just thinkIng about it! I liked the Leica 7x42 BN's until I tried the Nikon 8x32 SE's and the Zen Rays 8x43 ED's. They are my two top dogs now until something better comes along. I am always searching for the perfect view.

Dennis

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Why the heavy pitch then? Can't people just wait for the next miracle iteration, or the one after that?

Seems like a another Chinese bin du jour is about due.

FrankD said:

For what it is worth, I have only read this page of this thread. After reading some of the comments I am afraid to go back and read the rest.....

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I think Frank is calling out for peace, guys! Let's respect that, for the love of optics and this forum.

I read the rest...and am sorry it has come to this point. It never should have.

Mike,

Just thought I would offer.

henry link said:

I'm in a similar position to Alexis regarding these binoculars. I already use optically better binoculars and arguably have equal or better back ups. I don't like to order items with no intention of keeping them and even $360 is too much to spend for something I don't really want. I've mentioned these threads to some local birders who are looking for binoculars in this price range. If someone buys a pair I'll certainly try to test them in detail.

Meanwhile the most useful information posted here for my purposes continues to be Ron's (Surveyor) tests in post #20 from this thread:

http://birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=122545

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I hope that none of the muscle flexing discourages the type of testing done by people such as Ron.

Also, while it is abviously not economical, it would be interesting to know how good or bad the chinese bins are, once the dust settles a bit, and if any of the chinese bins are held to closer tolerances than the set tested by Ron.

Maybe Dennis has a real cherry :-C

I have to agree with Henry and RJ.

Maybe I missed something in this thread but the only thing I could find that seems to put these new Chinese binoculars in the same (or nearly the same, 99%) class optically as the Alpha's is ED glass. I'm a bit skeptical that this is enough. If it were, the Alphas could retain their leadership by starting to replace the lenses that require ED with new ED glass. No other changes would be necessary, right? And the improvement would be obvious. Right? Or alternatively, as was alluded to somewhere above; Europe and Japan are spending too much time (read money) eliminating quality control issues.

Ultimately, in optics especially, you get what you pay for. Or you should!

Bob

As always, I am astounded by the amount of knowledge on this forum. However, if I may add my 2 cents worth... Most birders I know, incomes in all ranges, are simply concerned with a great view and good ergonomics. Of the people I have met who have alpha bins, I think I can say honestly that they have alpha bins because they have the ability to buy what is perceived to be the best. Let's be honest, alpha bins are a status symbol with a great view - they are the Jags, Mercedes and Rolls of the bin market. I think it safe to say that most of us simply won't be buying the alpha bins for a number of reasons, mostly the price tag. If you don't recognize a bird, the alpha bins aren't going to change that - you just get a great view of the unsub bird! The vast majority of bins on the market, roof or porro, are not made with the coating or glass of the alphas. The vast majority of sport optics users will never put any of their optics through the star test, etc. and they will never know, or care, that their bins of choice may not fare well on any of these tests. Most of us don't know these tests even exist.
I read this forum because of the level of knowledge of optics and use of a wide variety of bins. I can't afford the alphas and don't feel the least bit bad for saying that, but I have to say that I don't know that I would purchase them even if I could. The great view is the ultimate goal and if I achieve that goal without great expenditure, then that is all the better.
As far as reputation, quality of the bins, repairs and longevity - all I can say is that at one point in time, the alphas were unknowns and had to earn their reputation. It is kind of like job experience - everbody wants you to have it, but that means that someone has to take the chance and give you the opportunity to get it. It may be "Zen who?" in a couple of years, but it could well be Swaro, Leica, Zeiss and Zen.

That is an oversimplification "You get what you pay for."

Kevin Conville said:

Denco-
7x42 is the BEST forget the rest. I tried all the configurations and 7x42 blows 8x42's away everyday!

Try a 7x42 Leica BN. Just try them. They are made by god! I assure you.

2nd that! I will never go back to 8x42 binoculars after having 7x42's

I don't know Dennis, if ZEN makes a 7x42 it could be dangerous to your health.

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My Zeiss 7x42 FL's are brighter than my 7x50's or 9x63 Pentax DCF and have a nice wide 8.6° FOV / 60° AFOV , 6.5ft close focus and at 26oz they are the lightest ultra premium 7x42.

lulubelle said:

Of the people I have met who have alpha bins, I think I can say honestly that they have alpha bins because they have the ability to buy what is perceived to be the best. Let's be honest, alpha bins are a status symbol with a great view - they are the Jags, Mercedes and Rolls of the bin market. I think it safe to say that most of us simply won't be buying the alpha bins for a number of reasons, mostly the price tag.

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Oh man... now we're kicking the dead horse!

Let's be honest? Swaro = Bling Bling?

I always thought they represented excellent quality, great ergonomics and a great view. Wow... to think I almost got suckered into buying an expensive piece of overpriced Euro-junk!

I visited that Swaro forum and almost nobody was complaining about their binoculars. They gotta be embarrassed! Do they know they only perceived the view? Probably not. Maybe it's some kind of club... you know... doctors, lawyers... oh, and dentists (damn dentists!)

Glad I found out.

Now I can spend my cash money on 6 or 7 pairs of fine Chinese glass!

Cheers

Lets face it, Swaro wont be winning any Best Buy or Best Value or Best Bang for Your Buck awards.

orbitaljump said:

That is an oversimplification "You get what you pay for."

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I think it's time to leave here now. This thread had some potential at one time. Before I go though, here is the full context of what I said regarding the above alleged "oversimplification" in thread #69 above.

"Ultimately, in optics especially, you get what you pay for. Or you should."

Cordially (as always)
Bob

It's sad that all we've done is manage to scare off the OP

Sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way.

Apart from a very few points around semantics I see no reason for anyone to bow out or be scared off. What would anyone expect from a question around "Overall Best Binoculars", I got a lot out of it from all posters.

Back to the thread.

Based on price/performance, overall construction, ergonomics/handling, repairability (as opposed to tossing in a landfill) and overall perfect view... I vote for Meopta!

cheers

Steve C said:

I have always thought that the best reason for having an alpha class binocular is to eliminate any vestige of doubt that might exist in one’s mind. If you are going someplace on the trip of a lifetime, or use your binocular extensively, or simply want the best instrument you can get, then the alpha class is the only place for you to be. The idea of “I’d made that ID if I’d not have been cheap and got a better glass” is not something you will have to contend with.

But, when we get down to just what is seen from use in the field, I think a number somewhere north of 90% of regular binocular users will not be able to separate differences in image between the ZEN class and the alpha class. I happen to be completely confident that if I miss the ID, it’s because I just wasn’t able to make it, not because of need of a better binocular. Nor do I have any particular fear they will self destruct in the field. My peresonal desire for an expensive alpha glass is now gone.

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Steve,

I would like to add a bit to some of your commentary, and posibly even refute a bit as well. Unlike you, I AM working for an alpha company and therefore will be immediately suspect, however I came to the company not by way of sales experience or for any professional training in optics, but as a professional birder for nearly 20 years prior. If you would indulge me I want to recant some personal experiences that led me to buy my first Alpha binoc again nearly 20 years ago.

At the time I was working as a seasonal field research biologist bouncing from position to position on average of every 3 months. A labor of love paying "small stipends" and typically providing a roof of sorts over my head. My annual salary at this point was at or below $10,000 US, so if anyone couldn't afford an alpha binoc (representing >10% of my annual salary) it was me. However, I still found this a necessity/priority for the following reasons.

Durability/ build quality - In my first years of working as a seasonal biologist (sitting outside for days on end watching birds!) I purchased the best quality bins I thought I could afford. These were a well touted porro that had a great reputation and ran between $250-300. Fresh out of the box these were excellent and like many, I could see little difference between these and the Alphas when I borrowed a pair for a few minutes in bright sunlight. However, after a couple years of intensive use after suffering a couple failures with internal fogging and similar, the colors I enjoyed fresh out of the box were no longer there. I looked into getting these repaired but costs were almost as much as a new pair. I bought a second pair a bit after 2 years and once again (when brand new) the image was wonderful. Unfortunately, as I used these the image degraded all over again. When I purchased my first pair of "alphas" premium glass after 4 years of this, I used them without fail or notable degradation for the next 15 years in the harshest of conditions!

So here I expand a bit on your own assertion that build quality makes a difference, and suggest that if you buy 3 or 4 "bargain bins" in the lifetime of one of the "alpha"/premium brands then perhaps this isn't as much as a bargain as you thought (or perhaps the "expensive" premium product is not SOO expensive after all). Plus if the image quality deteriorates rapidly on some lesser quality bins, then you are also working through poor views and probably inducing eye strain to boot.

Regarding the issue that most will not be able to note differences, here I have to heartily disagree! I think many convince themselves of this when quickly comparing brand new products at an optics shop or show (I know I did for years ;p ). However, these comparisons are often done quickly. Also, at the shows I typically work, it seems people invariably it's mid day and people want to take these outside or peer out the windows. In bright sunlight average differences between optics at all levels are less noticeable.

I remember my first conscious notation of the power of the premium bin. I was standing shoulder to shoulder with a buddy who had just made the jump and we were staring at a Northern Saw-whet Owl roosting against the trunk of a thick Blue Spruce in a dense grove of conifers. Through my decent porros, I noted a shadowed ovate shape brown and white markings with little contrast. My buddy next to me with his brand new optics that he'd paid 4x more for than me with mine, was yammering on about the colors, and how amazing the feathers were noting it looked as though it had "long eyelashes". My bins were 8.5x his 7x yet I could not see the detail he did. I knew I'd regret it in my wallet but I asked to see.... It was incredible!... as though someone had put a sunlight spot light on the bird .I was seeing amazing color contrast and details just not visible in my bins. I applied for credit and got myself a pair a week later.

Additionally, you can see the same effect at ANY twitch anywhere in the world. Invariably, someone will set up a bargain scope and not be able to make out details be it true colors, or to resolve details on a rare bird then move to a high-end/premium scope set to the same power and be able to see all of this. It happens all the time. So here I say that absolutely there will be times when a bargain optic will not be able to resolve the detail necessary to make a positive ID and the premium optic will! Especially in low light or with distant birds (again at close range in full sunlight this will be less apparent).

Of course, as I said upfront I have a vested interest and my opinions will be suspect... my company stands to gain if more people buy premium optics! However, I will challenge comments like this and ask that before anyone makes these you do the following:

1) take note of which optics are still in use after 10 years or so. I would also welcome all to compare a 3-4 year old "bargain binoc" to a similarly used premium optic and see if the differences are still not easily apparent.

2) Give a premium optic a REAL test not for just moments but try to take advantage of a situation where you can actually borrow a pair for a full day of field birding. Compare your overall experience to include eye comfort, and eye fatigue.

I'd suggest that very few individuals wouldn't find the difference extreme after going BACK to their bargain binocs! ;p I know similarly when I received my sample of our new scope with the revolutionary wide angle zoom eyepiece. I could tell there was superior resolution immediately and appreciated the wide angle view, but it wasn't until I'd used it for a week and went back to it's predecessor (an EXCELLENT scope) that I was absolutely floored by how acutely aware I was of the narrower field of view.... Similarly, I carried a 6.5 pound tripod/head combination for almost 17 years without any problem. Recently I switched to a 3 pound tripod & head combo. After carrying it for a year I accidently picked up someone else's scope with the same old tripod I'd carried everywhere for years. It was FUNNY, I felt as though I were trying to curl bricks. I'd grown so accustomed to the new, improved lighter weight that this old setup was painful!

At any rate, that's my sermon for now. Whatever your pricepoint, I think it VERY safe to say that in most cases you get what you pay for in optics though and to get maximum enjoyment out of your time afield get the BEST quality optics you can. If you're eye doctor shows you are seeing 20/20 (beit corrected or naturally) and others around you are making out details or true colors on birds you can't see well, perhaps you should consider that there is a difference in the optics you choose.

Good birding all,

Jeff Bouton
Leica Sport Optics, USA