• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Upton Warren (14 Viewers)

OK Mike and Phil, I understand your joint standpoint, now. So given John's invite to debate improvement work in the vicinity of the hide, what is open to discussion?
Is a compromise possible, perhaps?
What about the Linnet feeding area, would that be open to radial channels, thus possibly affording more Snipe-friendly habitat on the other side of the panorama, maybe? Or are we saying that no more channels should be excavated?
 
OK Mike and Phil, I understand your joint standpoint, now. So given John's invite to debate improvement work in the vicinity of the hide, what is open to discussion?
Is a compromise possible, perhaps?
What about the Linnet feeding area, would that be open to radial channels, thus possibly affording more Snipe-friendly habitat on the other side of the panorama, maybe? Or are we saying that no more channels should be excavated?

I think on Sunday we can consolidate the 'South west delta' channels to start with, and then play it by ear. One thing to add, we have received an email from the Trust to say that we cannot excavate any new areas until we have permission - due to the presence of salt plants.
The spoil can be used to expand the dry area along the spit, which will hopefully increase the grassy areas so important to breeding waders.

I am having a problem with names today, the 'sluice basin' is at the Moors. The area in photo 3 is actually the 'SW Delta', what makes it worse I put the names to these areas :eek!:8-P8-P. I think I will go to bed and start again.:gn:
 
Last edited:
OK Mike and Phil, I understand your joint standpoint, now. So given John's invite to debate improvement work in the vicinity of the hide, what is open to discussion?
Is a compromise possible, perhaps?
What about the Linnet feeding area, would that be open to radial channels, thus possibly affording more Snipe-friendly habitat on the other side of the panorama, maybe? Or are we saying that no more channels should be excavated?

Hi Sy - most of our recent works over the last 18 months has been developing a series of spits on the near shore; these both increase the length of available shoreline but also create sheltered, shallow areas of water ideal for insects and their larvae (and therefore food for waders and their young).

I personally would concentrate on the silt clearance and works to the feeder channel in the main body of the Flashes whilst the water level is this low and review the stance on the possibilty nearer channels when (a) the hide is installed so we can assess the impact of its new location and (b) this year's growth of phraggy is removed from the "delta" area. It would estimate that we are losing around 3 sq metres a year in digging out reeds which doesnt sound a lot but adds up over a decade or so, with no way of ever replacing it.

John has called for a many views as possible and I wouldn't expect us all to agree on priorities or our intrepretations on how the reserve works. John will be the gaffer on Sunday and am sure will weigh up all the views combined with his own thoughts and observations over many many years.
 
I have attached 3 pics to remind us what the place looked like with water in it.
This was 3rd May at water level 0.4.

Last year we put the spoil on the south side of the spit. This removed the steep sides and we can look at that on Sunday We can also create more 'land' off the southern end of the 'delta' . This will ensure that no grassy areas will be lost. Regarding the phragy we will have to stress the predicament we have to the Trust to ensure that we loose no more of this prime site.

Paul (Beyonder) what did you want us to do in the 'central' area, there are no salt plants there so not any problem. We can work there and use the spoil to add land to the grassy knoll, in photo 1 you can see it behind the 2 posts that are in the water.
The photos will give us more of an idea on how the work will look next spring. If anyone can print off the 6 pictures ( these 3 and the other 3 from earlier in the day) we could use them on Sunday.
B :)John
 

Attachments

  • 1.1st Fl and channels WL .4 3rd May11.jpg
    1.1st Fl and channels WL .4 3rd May11.jpg
    210.5 KB · Views: 49
  • 2. spit 0.4 wlevel 4th May 11DSCF5765.jpg
    2. spit 0.4 wlevel 4th May 11DSCF5765.jpg
    206.6 KB · Views: 41
  • 3.delta WL 04 3rd May 11.jpg
    3.delta WL 04 3rd May 11.jpg
    179.6 KB · Views: 44
Well here is the full set with pics taken last week
 

Attachments

  • 1. now.jpg
    1. now.jpg
    183.1 KB · Views: 56
  • 2.Islands in central area.jpg
    2.Islands in central area.jpg
    174.2 KB · Views: 57
  • 3. nowDSCF7490.jpg
    3. nowDSCF7490.jpg
    188.3 KB · Views: 61
  • 4. no.jpg
    4. no.jpg
    207.9 KB · Views: 58
...series of spits on the near shore; these both increase the length of available shoreline but also create sheltered, shallow areas of water ideal for insects and their larvae (and therefore food for waders and their young)...

As do properly excavated channels. But, I'll wind my neck in now, as I accept that there's too much resistance to the idea, both from within the VW cadre and from the Trust (in the shape of their no fresh digging edict).

Can we agree that (at some point before Spring) the section of hedge immediately to the rear of the hide needs the "cut down and layered area" extending to the North (by about another 5 metres) to provide more of a panorama of the transmitter field?

SJV
 
As do properly excavated channels. But, I'll wind my neck in now, as I accept that there's too much resistance to the idea, both from within the VW cadre and from the Trust (in the shape of their no fresh digging edict).

Can we agree that (at some point before Spring) the section of hedge immediately to the rear of the hide needs the "cut down and layered area" extending to the North (by about another 5 metres) to provide more of a panorama of the transmitter field?

SJV

Hi Sy - I think you will find that we are all in agreement that further work to the hedgerow bounding the transmitter field would be beneficial. What I dont know (and will leave to others with more understanding of hedgerow management) is if its better to extend the current managed area at the rear of the hide or create several managed areas interspersed with lengths of the current height. Whilst the views into the transmitter field have been very productive the original reason we started this experiment was to rejuvinate the hedgerow itself by removing some of the leggier growth and increase the potential for insects, caterpillars etc which the birds will follow.
 
Speaking as a hedgelayer - 'Layering' is the only effective way (apart from actually coppicing) to produce more, fresh, growth - particularly with a non-suckering species such as Hawthorn. Selective removal of stems might increase the lighting conditions and promote seed-regeneration depending on adjacent shade conditions. If you decide to lay in sections then i would have thought about 5 metres minimum in order to achieve some sort of castellated effect..........

Just my thoughts -

Laurie:t:
 
...Paul (Beyonder) what did you want us to do in the 'central' area, there are no salt plants there so not any problem. We can work there and use the spoil to add land to the grassy knoll, in photo 1 you can see it behind the 2 posts that are in the water....
B :)John

From conversations last time I had assumed there was still further to take the channel which was already worked on and I had also assumed we were trying to fit in extra work parties to work on areas which are only temporarily available. So I thought the central area was where we were talking about.

As far as ideas go I wondered if there would be benefit to creating wider, but shallower ledges or steps along the sides of the channel so they are just under water now. The channel is currently a narrow and therefore competitive space.

This might give varying depths for longer periods as water levels increase and decrease - if we kept it to the area round the "new" channel it wouldn't impact the depths around the Avocet nesting areas which clearly work at spring water levels.

I also wonder if the "spoil" is actually the larder and should be retained to be replaced where we get down to the real mud and clay?

But please understand - I'm just riffing. I am probably the greenest of all of you and have no wish to appear to be waltzing in telling you how things should be done as I really have no idea and you all seem to have done a damn fine job this far. For reasons I won't bore you with I've become very passionate about all this conservation malarkey and that sometimes morphs into inappropriate over-enthusiasm. Feel free to openly set me straight or quietly ignore me. Just please, don't make me sit in the cheap seats guv o:D

Paul
 
From conversations last time I had assumed there was still further to take the channel which was already worked on and I had also assumed we were trying to fit in extra work parties to work on areas which are only temporarily available. So I thought the central area was where we were talking about.

As far as ideas go I wondered if there would be benefit to creating wider, but shallower ledges or steps along the sides of the channel so they are just under water now. The channel is currently a narrow and therefore competitive space.

This might give varying depths for longer periods as water levels increase and decrease - if we kept it to the area round the "new" channel it wouldn't impact the depths around the Avocet nesting areas which clearly work at spring water levels.

I also wonder if the "spoil" is actually the larder and should be retained to be replaced where we get down to the real mud and clay?

But please understand - I'm just riffing. I am probably the greenest of all of you and have no wish to appear to be waltzing in telling you how things should be done as I really have no idea and you all seem to have done a damn fine job this far. For reasons I won't bore you with I've become very passionate about all this conservation malarkey and that sometimes morphs into inappropriate over-enthusiasm. Feel free to openly set me straight or quietly ignore me. Just please, don't make me sit in the cheap seats guv o:D

Paul
spot on Paul re the channels and taking advantage of the low water, I'm sure we will be able to work on that area. The reason behind the 'delta' channel work is to create better viewing short term but also there are areas there that are under water, we can add to the promontories while the water is low.
Plus these channels silt/dry up too early in the breeding season. The work will prolong there usefulness and give more photo opportunities in the summer.
Re the central channels, it would be useful to have a couple facing the hide so we can see what's in there. If we get enough people maybe all options will be sorted. The wetter ditches will be easy, we can pile some the spoil into the 2nd flash to ensure any invertebrate larvae survives, these mounds/islets will rapidly erode once the water arrives. The rest of the spoil will help consolidate the grassy knoll.
:t:John
 
As do properly excavated channels. But, I'll wind my neck in now, as I accept that there's too much resistance to the idea, both from within the VW cadre and from the Trust (in the shape of their no fresh digging edict).

Can we agree that (at some point before Spring) the section of hedge immediately to the rear of the hide needs the "cut down and layered area" extending to the North (by about another 5 metres) to provide more of a panorama of the transmitter field?

SJV
Sy when the hide moves forward the hedge will need cutting back...Dave J and others recently mentioned how much stuff was flying across the transmitter field and it would be nice to have a 'balcony' out the back of the hide..this would give us a panoramic view for 'VIS MIG'.

re the ditches no resistance to the work its something that would be great to have. But the 'tide' of erosion on the islands to the left of the hide is relentless and it wont be long before it all disappears. Anyway we will have a closer look Sunday
:t:John
 
Sorry, I missed you today JTB, but 5 hours on a pretty uneventful (although as normal beautiful) Moors was enough for me I'm afraid. I was only stopped from going totally bonkers by JC walking into the Water Rail hide.
As I was leaving a large (30plus) mixed flock of Tits was making its way down the path towards the two hides. Did they eventually get to you JC? Downloading today's piccies now but there are no show-stoppers amongst them. Bird numbers are in the hide logbook but:
14 Shoveler
27 Teal
4 GCG
16 Cormorant
6 Pochard
9 Mute Swan
4 Heron
1 GSW
4 Tufted Duck
C95 Green Plover
1 Jay
2 Pied Wagtail
1 Kingfisher
 
Last edited:
c95 Green Plover ? Thought there was an Upton first for a moment there !

Sy, I think the occasional use of less common names for birds could catch on while things are a bit slow..although hopefully there will be a Bogbumper along soon to kick start things ;)
 
c95 Green Plover ? Thought there was an Upton first for a moment there !

Sy, I think the occasional use of less common names for birds could catch on while things are a bit slow..although hopefully there will be a Bogbumper along soon to kick start things ;)

Mark
Talking of common names whats a BOGBUMPER:-O, is that yam yam for rarity8-P
 
Had a walk around the moors today with Paul M to discuss forthcoming work parties.
The north moors trail is looking ideal for migrants, the north end blackthorn thickets were alive with birds, mostly tits and common garden birds, plus, goldcrest, great spot woodpecker and 2 song thrush a bit uncommon recently. At least 2 water rail called from the east side reed bed and another on the east side of the Moors. This is the time when we get migrants arriving for the winter and 3 in such a small area these had just arrived. Overhead my first redwing and several redpolls called as well as a couple of skylark, also 5 mistle thrush flew south, a real rarity these days. Walking around the Broadmeadow we flushed 6 snipe.
On and around the pools were green sand , 90+ lapwing, 2 curlews arrived, had a quick wash and then flew south, we always assume they are part of the wintering flock, but they could well be migrants.
Other sightings: GCG 5, Mute swan 9, teal c30, shoveler 31, Tufted 20+, Common Gull ad, herring gull 2, kingfisher 2. There seems to be a noticeable increase in passerines all around today maybe autumn is just about to start at Upton.
B :)John
 
Last edited:
c95 Green Plover ? Thought there was an Upton first for a moment there !

Sy, I think the occasional use of less common names for birds could catch on while things are a bit slow..although hopefully there will be a Bogbumper along soon to kick start things ;)

It will start to sound like an update from Terry Norledge or Phil Quiney, full of titmice, seven-coloured linnets, dabchicks etc. With a bit of movement from the east I am just awaiting for a seven-striped sprite ;)
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top