7D11 vs 5D3 and 1DX (1 Viewer)

Looking at the two sets of photos you have posted Bob, I don't see too much wrong with the focus in the first set but perhaps, because the light was poor you have used noise reduction that has smoothed out detail in one or two ? Perhaps the shutter speed was too low for hand holding or perhaps with the likes of the Bittern the head moved.With the second batch there are so many twigs/branches/blades of grass in the way that unless you used the single point spot AF there is every chance you'll pick up the wrong target. Of course in this mode and single point all the custom AF modes are irrelevant.
Good light always produces more detail and maybe some people are over anxious at producing prize winning shots on their first outings.
I must admit I have never had focus issues with any lenses I have owned, either Canon or Nikon, but they must exist otherwise the micro adjust feature wouldn't be included. I don't see why a n FX camera would focus any better than a crop body either although the more MP's you have I guess the smaller the margin of error.

Dave Williams said:

Looking at the two sets of photos you have posted Bob, I don't see too much wrong with the focus in the first set but perhaps, because the light was poor you have used noise reduction that has smoothed out detail in one or two ? Perhaps the shutter speed was too low for hand holding or perhaps with the likes of the Bittern the head moved.With the second batch there are so many twigs/branches/blades of grass in the way that unless you used the single point spot AF there is every chance you'll pick up the wrong target. Of course in this mode and single point all the custom AF modes are irrelevant.
Good light always produces more detail and maybe some people are over anxious at producing prize winning shots on their first outings.
I must admit I have never had focus issues with any lenses I have owned, either Canon or Nikon, but they must exist otherwise the micro adjust feature wouldn't be included. I don't see why a n FX camera would focus any better than a crop body either although the more MP's you have I guess the smaller the margin of error.

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Dave
Thanks for the input on my posted shots,i did have single point spot af selected in all shots, i always use this af point and try to get it on the birds eye if possible.Most of the shots were right on the money looking at the af point on the camera LCD screen.Another thing that worries me is that 8 out of 10 shots in the high burst mode were well out of focus so i have other issues with the camera too.
My mate who also goes birding with me tells me i am paranoid about the new set-up and thinks the shots are ok considering the light and the crop etc but my thinking was get both checked out by Canon as it was only an hour by public transport to the service centre and then i will know for sure if the body or lens need a slight tweek here or there, if both lens and body get a clear bill of health then its peace of mind on my behalf that at least it has been checked out by the makers.
I will let you know if the shots are any better when i get them both back from Canon and if Canon put any comments on the paperwork with their return.

Cheers

Bob

Bob - I used Al Servo AF mode and shoot at bursts of 8-10 fps. Depending on the shutter speed and ISO, never can I achieve all dead sharp even when shooting on a tripod. I am happy if 1-2 images appeared sharp when I zoom in full on the LCD.

SeeToh said:

Bob - I used Al Servo AF mode and shoot at bursts of 8-10 fps. Depending on the shutter speed and ISO, never can I achieve all dead sharp even when shooting on a tripod. I am happy if 1-2 images appeared sharp when I zoom in full on the LCD.

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See Toh
Thanks for info,i too use Al Servo most of the time so maybe its a norm for the 7d2 ?
Nice shot of the Eyebrowed Thrush which you posted in the Gallery today.
No birding for me this weekend as we have been chased out to Jurong Anchorage for 10 days so i will just have to be satisfied with the odd passing Sea Eagle and Tern.
Will definiteley get over to Dairy Farm Nature Park once we re-berth as you seem to be getting some cracking birds there.

Cheers

Bob


Cheers

Bob

Bob

There are many fruiting/figging trees at Dairy Farm Nature Park now.

Besides the Eyebrowed Thrush, there is also a less obliging Siberian Thrush. You can also expect to shoot Crimson Sunbird, Little Spiderhunter, Olive-winged Bulbul, Cinereous Bulbul, Asian Red-eyed Bulbul, Streaked Bulbul, Straw-headed Bulbul and Asian Fairy Bluebird there.

Where are you anchoring now? Aleutian Tern is quite a regular at the Eastern Anchorage. Great Crested and Lesser Crested Terns should be common now. Do look out for wintering Jaeger/Skua. By the way, we have sighted the very rare Red-footed Booby, Lesser and Christmas Island Frigatebirds along the Singapore Straits. Good luck.

See Toh

bob freeman said:

See Toh
Thanks for info,i too use Al Servo most of the time so maybe its a norm for the 7d2 ?
Nice shot of the Eyebrowed Thrush which you posted in the Gallery today.
No birding for me this weekend as we have been chased out to Jurong Anchorage for 10 days so i will just have to be satisfied with the odd passing Sea Eagle and Tern.
Will definiteley get over to Dairy Farm Nature Park once we re-berth as you seem to be getting some cracking birds there.

Cheers

Bob


Cheers

Bob

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Bob,

Just to clarify my points in case they weren't clear. Without performing an in-home focus test, it is hard to know if you have focussing issues unless you view your images with the focus point shown on the image - maybe the sensor wasn't over the birds eye etc.

Obviously sending it back to Canon instead of doing this and have them do a calibration is another way to go if it is free AND you send the lens you are using with the body.

The micro-adjustment on the 7D MK11 goes from 0 + 10 + 20 for front focus and 0 - 10 -20 for rear focus.

I adjusted mine to +12 and seems to be fine.

I must admit that there is a bit of paranoia for me whenever I get a new body since I have to tweak my processing from how I used to handle files from my 40D and also, since I am shooting jpeg right now (old computer/software), I am not sure how these would compare to a RAW file that I normally process. The higher pixel density visible in my images is also something I need to get used to since my eye automatically compares it to what I've been used to from the 40D. From a few of the images I have taken, it seems that most of the issues are operator-centric right now. Gotta play more!

Julian
Yeah i did the Dot Tune microadjustment with 100-400 mk 2 lens and 7d2 body,printed off target etc and all mounted on tripod in large well lit confrence room,micro adjusted body with lens at the wide and zoom another new thing for me as 7d only had single microadjustment which was done with lens at max focal length.
I did notice that 7d2 did not see the 100-400 2 lens for to set the Lens Aberration in the menu and said lens was not included in the compatible lens list which is listed in the Canon software disc which came with the camera,this is probably down to the lens being introduced after the body so will probably be included in any new Firmware which is released at a later date.
On the focus point being on the birds eye i would have said they were as good as you could get but as Dave mentioned the light i have been shooting at has been pretty poor thus shutter speed not perfect for said lens used.
Paranoid about new setup? yes probably but having used the 7d1 along with the 100-400 original trumpet lens for 7 years i think i was expecting a big leap IQ wise with the new pairing and that i have not seen so far.
Anyway just have to see how things turn out when i get lens back and get out and about again birding.

Thanks

Bob

PS See Toh email sent

Difficult conditions

I was at Chinese gardens with Bob Freeman and his new 7DMkII/100-400 II. It was as dark and drizzly a day as I've seen in Singapore so show stopping shots were not going be had. I was using a 6D with a 70-300L. ISO was normally 1600-3200 but managed a few at 500 and a couple at 100 when the light improved. Bob's is right by letting Canon Singapore have a look at his set up for his own piece of mind. I thought his shots OK given the light conditions. Here's my efforts at a range of ISOs, massive crops and big licks with the Lightroom sliders

I shot this Large Hawk Cuckoo handheld with the 7Dm2 + 400mm f/5.6 combo at a wooded area during noon time. Light was good but as it was perching under the foliage, the lighting condition was still not ideal. It stayed at this perch for quite a while allowing me to squeeze off over 100 shots at different shutter speeds of 1/200-250s.

After reviewing the images on the camera LCD, I only managed to find 4 images out of the 100+ where the eyes are sharp. Majority of the shots were terribly out of focus when zoomed to 100% on the LCD screen!

This acceptable image was shot at TV mode ISO1250 1/250s f/6.3 +1EV Al Servo Single Point AF mode. The raw file was processed in Adobe Bridge and cropped to 21%.

I would attribute the very low percentage of keepers to my lousy handheld technique and the lack of IS on the lens than to the camera.

That's a nice shot but 4% keeper rate suggests major problems somewhere . 1/250th should be fast enough to get a sharp image . Wonder where the problem lies ?

Dave Williams said:

That's a nice shot but 4% keeper rate suggests major problems somewhere . 1/250th should be fast enough to get a sharp image . Wonder where the problem lies ?

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For fairy stationary bird, wonder whether Single Shot AF mode is more appropriate than Al Servo AF mode?

I must say that I am pretty new to DSLR photography. As such, my shooting techniques may need lots of improvement be it handheld or with tripod.

As a rule of thumb don't drop your shutter speed below the focal length value of the lens e.g. 400m lens 1/400 Tv. I have that lens too and having no IS its very hit or miss at anything less than 1/500, especially if hand held shooting bursts. Have you tried a monopod? better than lugging a tripod around, particularly in the heat here. Nice carbon fibre ones available.

Ford Renton (Bob Freeman's Singapore birding buddy)

crenton said:

As a rule of thumb don't drop your shutter speed below the focal length value of the lens e.g. 400m lens 1/400 Tv. I have that lens too and having no IS its very hit or miss at anything less than 1/500, especially if hand held shooting bursts. Have you tried a monopod? better than lugging a tripod around, particularly in the heat here. Nice carbon fibre ones available.

Ford Renton (Bob Freeman's Singapore birding buddy)

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Even more so when using a crop body like the 7D and the 400mm lens effectively becomes a 600mm.

I have my Tv setting for 1/800 for hand-holding. I'd be delighted to get a good pic unsupported at 1/250.

A good point about the lack of IS on the 400mm, I have been lucky to have it on all the birding lenses I have ever owned. That said, I can get away with much, much lower speeds if there's a handy tree or windowsill to use.

SeeToh said:

For fairy stationary bird, wonder whether Single Shot AF mode is more appropriate than Al Servo AF mode?

I must say that I am pretty new to DSLR photography. As such, my shooting techniques may need lots of improvement be it handheld or with tripod.

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I think that I have rabbited on before on this forum regarding the extremely high pixel density of both 7Ds. In my opinion they are very demanding cameras to use with long lenses attached at moderate shutter speeds. Any camera or lens movement or vibration and even subject movement is going to result in image blur to some degree. For serious wildlife work hand holding is not an option. After all how many pros do you see wandering around hand holding a long lens with converters attached.

I suspect that most of the 7D2’s perceived focus issues are down to the way that the camera is being used. Either that or misaligned or worn lenses are being attached. I have owned a number of bodies that were capable of focus point micro-adjustment. I have played around with it a few times but never found any need to apply adjustment for any lens. Canon has given us a means to soldier on without feeling the need to get our old lenses serviced or bench tested. There is only drawback. Who is to say that an error in a worn lens is going to be consistent from day to day.

See Toh,

That is a nice shot of the Large Hawk Cuckoo - looks nice and clean and sharp for 1250 ISO. I am looking forward to seeing what the IQ of the RAW file is compared to a large jpeg.

Does anyone have any comparisons between the IQ of a RAW file vs large JPEG.??

J

Barred Wobbler said:

Even more so when using a crop body like the 7D and the 400mm lens effectively becomes a 600mm.

I have my Tv setting for 1/800 for hand-holding. I'd be delighted to get a good pic unsupported at 1/250.

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Shooting at 1/400s in the woods at Singapore would mean that ISO will be set at 6400! Unless you can get very very close to the subject (which is rare), if not, images at ISO 6400 are not going to make the grade.

Shot this Eyebrowed Thrush in a low light/back lit situation with tripod. Managed to squeeze off over 30 shots and sadly only ONE is dead sharp. But the low number of keepers was more due to the slow shutter speed and lousy lighting condition.

Settings: 1/50s f/5.6 +1EV Av mode with ISO set at 800 (Cropped 30% in Adobe Bridge).

See Toh, if you're using the 400mm 5.6 lens that I think you are, the lack of IS would mean blurred photos unless you hit the /focal length rule.

After much deliberation and helped by some of the comments made on this thread I have come to the conclusion that the 7D2 will be a excellent choice for bright weather, gives the advantage of the 1.6 crop factor and has for those that want it the benefit of a pop up flash and both SD and Cf card slots. It's also less expensive than the other two options of 5D3 AND 1DX. Used with a lightweight lens it's also a less expensive combination than you can get away with for general wildlife photography when using the other two as well. That said it seems extra care is needed to avoid any movement so higher shutter speeds are required if the combination isn't rock solid on a tripod or bean bag.
The major weaknesses that seem to be appearing are not the focus issues getting reported though. I have seen enough convincing shots posted elsewhere to persuade me it's more likely user error than camera malfunction. In fact one person I spoke to claims the AF is better on the 7D2 than the 1DX. The main issues are more ISO capabilities and dynamic range.
Lots of apparent in camera issues can be solved in post processing, again it's dependant on programmes available and the photographers ability to use them to full potential. Alas on the latter I am very much a learner but even I can fix some problems simply if the information is there to retrieve. That's why I always shoot in RAW.
Someone already pointed out in this thread that this is a major benefit of the 1DX and the 5D3... the files are much easier to work with.
I spotted a 7D2 shot taken by a highly respected photographer only yesterday using it in combination with a 600mm and 1.4TC. Nice enough but some areas of white were totally blown, something you wouldn't normally see from this photographers work. On the other hand it was one heck of a cropped reach using that combination.
I bought my 5D3 before I bought the 1DX( the 1DX was way too expensive when it came out). One makes up for the others shortfalls but I guess if I had bought the 1DX first I wouldn't have bought the 5D3 and would have kept the 1D1V I had as both a back up and for the extra crop if I needed it. The 1D series are stand out cameras and the image quality and build is superb but they are a bit on the bulky side for general purpose photography.
The 5D3 matches the 1DX on almost everything except FPS and it doesn't have the ability to use exposure compensation in manual setting and auto-ISO that the 1DX does. The auto Iso on the 1DX is particularly good, as is the high ISO performance in general. I attach a shot I took recently in poor light, the Red Squirrel 1DX , 500mmf4Mk11 plus 2.0x TC MK111 @ 1/500th sec f8 and auto ISO 25,600. I am happy enough with the result on this cropped shot.
When it comes to recoverable highlights I haven't got anything to demonstrate from the 1DX or 5D3 but the shot of the Senegal Thick Knee from the 1D1V is typical of what can be done with ease. The details this time were 500mmf4 Mk1 plus 2.0xTCMk11 @ 1/1000sec f8 and ISO 1600.
As an aside other than the extremely beneficial weight saving the performance of both 500mm lens Mk2 and 2.0x TC Mk3 haven't been that noticeable to me.
And so, as with the lenses, with the camera bodies we are often lead to believe that the improvements are huge and significant and must haves. The marketing men at work backed by their chosen 'ambassadors" in the field. Those who buy the concept then have to justify their decision, sometimes I think it's a case of "the King's clothes."
In reality of course there are improvements over time. The upgrade from 7D1 ownership to 7D2 is a no brainer, four years technological improvements have come along but I must admit I think anyone contemplating the 7D2 would be sensible to consider a 1D1V if they can find a suitable used one. The price difference isn't too much. The 1DX is a different proposition because the loss of reach is a distinct downside but the IQ is top notch. It's also twice the price but there again so is it's life expectancy. 10 year old 1D's are still capable of matching the latest models given the right situations IMO and they can be picked up for relative peanuts now.
So where does all that leave me ?
Exactly where I started when I posed the question in the first place.
Sitting on the fence !

Dave Williams said:

That's a nice shot but 4% keeper rate suggests major problems somewhere . 1/250th should be fast enough to get a sharp image . Wonder where the problem lies ?

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As I can shoot a good deal of sharp images at 1/250 with that lens, hand held. He is probably right that the largest issue is his technique. Yes faster is always nicer, but sharp at 250 is not unfeasible. I will comfortably shoot at 1/250 (before I start goosing up the sensitivity).

SeeToh, sharp at 1/50, now that I consider impressive, even if only 1 out of 30. Generally I try to stay about 1/125 (for wind, slight movement of subject, etc), but take my tripod off my back then.