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Which Harrier? (1 Viewer)

gerd, the fingers are spread in pic 1 as in the other pics. i don't see any hidden/sticked to the other primary in the left wing, neither so in the right and in the other pics. the formula perfectly fits a monty's. female monty's are broader winged than males. hen harrier is definitely broader winged. and i have searched a lot through net pics of hen harrier to show such a (contrasting) secondary bar, haven't found. neither is it mentioned in forsman. the white rump appears big in pic 1 because it's blurry and white "eats" into darker surface, see pic 2 and ff, anyway that's not a reliable feature. the wing tips (finger tips) look darkish from below (see pic5), female hen's fingers are striped with white dominating (usually narrower black bands); finally you can see the secondary bar from the ventral side in pic 5 too.
 
few thoughts,...
* It's known that Monty's wing tips can look as the bird has 5 "fingers" in some views, but everyone can see that 5th "finger" (which it's not ;-) ) is in the same line as trailing edge of wing, thus it does not really differ from it on behalf of lenght. So the bird has 4 fingers!
* Also the bird has not so strongly striped underparts as it should be usually in Hen , so that fits more to Monty's too.
* The trailing edge of primary wing dissappear slightly (thus it's paler than the trailing edge of secondary wing) in this bird and Hen has dark trailing edge of primary wing. It can even sometimes nearly dissappear in Monty's,, see e.g. http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Tenovuo/niittysuohaukka_7_Kempele_07_06.jpg
 
Hmmm, interesting bird - not entirely convinced on it's id as the appearance varies a bit between pics.

Body tends to look on the heavy side for Monty's, more like hen, but the wings do look fairly narrow (or at least even widthed, only a hint of an S curve to the trailing edge) and with the wingtip looking more like Monty's (although in theory a small outermost primary could be hidden in ever pic).

No-one's really mentioned the rather pale underbody which appears pretty unmarked or the pale head and nape which it appears to show, which isn't ideal for either hen or Monty's, except worn immatures. The underwing coverts also appear quite pale. Some details on what the underparts really looked like would be useful.

The upperparts also appear rather dark and plain, with fairly reduced pale mottling on the coverts for hen or adult female Monty's, though it could just be a photo effect. if it's an imm I'd expect it to appear more mottled due to wear and fading??

From the paleness underneath and the apparent collar I'm guessing it may not be a fully adult bird, and I'm tending towards it being a Monty's but the apparent body bulk still has me thinking it might be a odd imm male hen that's just started moulting.

From my experience of local hen harriers you wouldn't expect much sign of wing moult (primaries and secondaries) by early June when the pic was taken, and it's usually innermost primaries first.

Seeing as Zek is in Northern Ireland, if the bird was there then anything other than hen would be a pretty good record.

Cheers,
Andrew
 
When i firts time saw those pics, i was 100% sure it´s a Monty:Narrow wings,4 fingers,no stripes its body,dark bars upper part of its wings.

There was 8 replays and only one suggested Monty.I was quite confused about that.Then yesterday site was down and i didn´t manage to get see how this interesting harrier topic is going ;)
Today when i got i see there is a lot more Monty´s voters as i expected :scribe:
 
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Many thanks again for your thoughts. I've included a few more shots in case they might help,
thanks again.
 

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the wing bar is really really obvious on that last shot: surely no hen harrier would show a wingbar anything like as prominent as that!
 
and some more.....I hope there's no repeats!

Many thanks.
Zek.
 

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aythya_hybrid said:
the wing bar is really really obvious on that last shot: surely no hen harrier would show a wingbar anything like as prominent as that!
Click to expand...

For what it's worth I agree and now think it's definitely a Monty.
Graham
 
Elevated wing position in the first picture is a feature for Montague's
The third picture shows a second primary which is longer than the third; normally a Montague's would show a third primary being longer than the second. So that implies the bird probably is moulting in the hand. How is that for the wing formula?
Moreover, in Monty the fourth primary has to be of equal length as the second. In this bird it is a lot shorter than the second!
The fourth picture shows us a body and tail , really abnormally full and short for Monty. I find this a thing, I cant pass.
The last pic shows us a darker secondary bar than the terminal line. Normally it would make us say: Typical Monty.
I am somewhere in between the two species but I have to start counting points to know exactly where.
Thanks Zek; its interesting stuff.

For the second new set of pics, I say three things: The secondary bar often vanishes in a dark secondary field, the hand of the bird is moulting (or, growing feathers) and I am definitely not in for a certain Monty.

It may equal a juvenile Monty in formula but if we have to take it as an adult Monty it ought to show a longer and more pointed hand than a juv.
 
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Thanks again - On the 1st of June 2005, a falconer friend driving along the East coast of Northern Ireland, saw a raptor soaring high overhead - he didn't recognise it. He phoned me and I thought it sounded like Harrier. There are no Hen Harriers within about 15 miles of this region. I happened to be talking to a Birdwatcher friend later, and I mentioned it, as he has a lot more experience than me. He thought it could well be a Marsh Harrier (he'd seen one before in this region), and off he headed to the saltmarsh/reeds at the head of a local sea lough where he expected it to turn up. He was just in time to see a harrier going in to roost! Early next morning (if I get the story right), he returned and captured the Harrier on video just before it left and was never seen again. We only have Hen Harrier here in Northern Ireland. Sometimes Marsh H. turns up. This would possibly be a first record of Monty for our country. Someone dismissed it as a Hen H., and the footage was put away. Just recently he pulled the footage out, and some local birdwatchers are of the opinion it's Monty, however we don't have a lot of experience of this species. thanks again.
Zek.
 
lou salomon said:
that's ireland, gerd, as far as i understood, not northern ireland. can't imagine, there hasn't been any monty record for northern ireland though. possibly no breeding time record?
Click to expand...

oh, I reckoned it as the same lump in the ocean, I apologize

look what i found: http://peregrinesbirdblog.blogspot....record-for.html
Click to expand...

You found the first record of a male Monty for Northern Ireland, according to those people!
Well done Lou.

it seems 2006 has provided the 2 first records for NI indeed!
Click to expand...

I didnt know there was another bird this year? Anyway, the bird in this thread was in 2005
 
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The bird in question here was from 2005. The date is on the footage. There have been records for Ireland, but not for Northern Ireland. The first Monty I understand was a male found this year in Belfast - I understand the gentleman who found it has since died - very sad. This female in question here, however, is from 2005. I suppose it'll have to go before a records committee before it's accepted.
thanks,
Zek.
 
zek said:
The bird in question here was from 2005. The date is on the footage. There have been records for Ireland, but not for Northern Ireland. The first Monty I understand was a male found this year in Belfast - I understand the gentleman who found it has since died - very sad. This female in question here, however, is from 2005. I suppose it'll have to go before a records committee before it's accepted.
thanks,
Zek.
Click to expand...

Good luck with it and thanks for sharing Zek, it has been interesting.
In a democracy people vote for Monty!
 
Hi all,
When I first came across this thread yesterday, my initial reaction was one of perpelxed frustration: ringtail harriers can be tough, but this one seemed amazingly so! Having slept on the matter, I feel slightly more at ease in responding, but not much!
First off, let me state that, in my opinion, the bird can be aged and sexed as a 2nd calendar year female (2nd cal male of any ringtail harrier should have moulted more head and body feathers by June) due to the tone of the underparts etc. Given the blurred nature of the video footage, however, it is surprisingly difficult to establish whether or not the underparts would have been uniformly orangeish (juvenile Montagu's is deeper orange below than the mystery bird, but wear could produce such a colour by June) or merely ochre-washed with streaking, as on Hen of that age.
The wing formula does, at first glance, seem better for Montagu's or Pallid, with four rather than five 'fingers', but, due to the blurred video again, is this a true reflection of the wing formula? In the absence of field notes or sharp pics, we'll never know.
Regarding the obvious bar on the upper secondaries: video is known to enhance contrast, so this may well not have been as obvious in life.
Structurally, the bird seems better for Hen than Montagu's, so that adds to the confusion!
Assuming that this will be submitted to them, I don't envy the NIBARC the task of assessing the record, unless some other evidence also comes to light. The onus must surely be on them to rule out Hen (and Pallid!) with certainty in order for it to be acceptable as a Montagu's, otherwise it must surely be rejected....
Regards,
Harry
 
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