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new guy with a new CP 4500 and 'n old problem of focusing (1 Viewer)

willemw

Member
Hello everybody
I am new to this site, also new to digiscoping, not for birding in the first place but for other wildlife, and I am already impressed by all the information on Birdforum.net.
Hope the other wildlife interest is not a reason to send me away :).
I’ve been reading some discussions about the best way of focusing your digital camera + spotting scope combination. Having bought recently the Coolpix 4500 and a Nikon Sky&Earth 80A, I did some testing to try all the valuable tips on this site. I have to acknowledge that focusing is difficult, extremely difficult.
At last, I managed to get a bit familiar with the camera, and the results are getting from horrible, via bad, to promising. Only promising, until now.
My settings are as follows: manual focusing at infinity, single AF, ISO 200, final focusing I do on the scope, I use the self timer. The tripod is stable and OK. Did some tests at a place with almost no wind. Nobody walking around the set-up.
Picture is included (ISO 400, 1/85, f=5.1). Object at approx 100-125 meters.
Today, I continued the tests, and tried to focus from a room (to have no disturbing factors, and to have a better view on the LCD screen) to an object at approx 80 meters. Using two reading glasses, in the end I was absolutely sure that I was in focus. Someone with young eyes checked for me, and we agreed that the picture in the LCD was razor sharp. We even used a magnifying glass.
Then we saw what’s happening: when taking the picture, the LCD goes blank for about a second, and then the picture returns on the LCD, but it is slightly blurred, colors are flattened out, and that’s exactly what I get on the screen of my computer monitor. Is the depth-of-view in the LCD different from the picture as it is recorded? Is the self timer the culprit? We have done quite some tests, but the quite significant quality and sharpness degradation occurs every time.
I hope this has nothing to do with the faulty Coolpix cameras I read some discouraging messages about....
Just tried again a test with 800 ASA, and image sharpening at high. I am still suspicious about the colors, but the picture at 27x magnification of the scope, and 4x optical (I admit, this is squeezing the thing to the max), same object at about 80 meters, is almost as sharp as it can be. It was not a bird, by the way.
Does anyone have further advice?
Thanks in advance, this is a great source of information.
Regards
Willem
 

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Hi Willem,

On behalf of Admin and the Moderators, welcome to Bird Forum :t:

I dabble in digiscoping too, but have only been at it about a year now. I think you have given the answer in your post - the self timer!

It sounds as if you are setting the camera up properly - though I'd strongly recommend 100 ASA rather than any higher unless conditions are really dull. I find the self timer is fine for 'close-up' shots where the subject fills the frame, but for distant ones it doesn't work so well. The best technique I find is to half depress the shutter so locking the camera focus, focus with the scope and then depress the shutter all of the way. That way whatever is shown on the LCD is what gets recorded. The second issue is never use 4x optical zoom. I find I get the sharpest results at around 2-3x optical zoom and the scope at around 20-30x. For getting a larger image recorded you are better off increasing the eyepiece magnification rather than the camera zoom. I'd give this technique a go before condemning the camera. If you get a sunny day then you should manage a shutter speed of 1/125 - 1/500 and the widest aperture so hand releasing the shutter shouldn't be a problem - especially if you use continuous mode.

I also sometimes find the 'focus confirmation' setting useful as when viewing the LCD and adjusting the scope focus you can watch the zone of maximum sharpness move across the field of view until the subject is highlighted.

I hope this helps.
 
IanF
Thanks for the quick advice. Do you happen to know what goes wrong with the timer, and would I have the same problems with a remote control? I would prefer to use a remote control, we haven't got that many sunny days here, and some wildlife prefer to <perform> early in the morning, or at dusk.
But I will certainly try your technique in a new series of tests. Will let you know the results!
Thanks again.
Willem
 
Willem,hello,welcome to BF.Yes Digiscoping is very tricky,.I think you may have more success with a remote,as opposed to a self timer,esp if photographing birds etc,but there are many experienced folks on this Forum and hopefully someone else will come along with some more ideas.Have you been to Andy Brights Digiscoping Forum?, also there are several threads on this Forum re digiscoping settings etc.
 
Hi Willem,

I would try the x-tend a view shade, or make one from a slide viewer as described on Andy Brights website.

I would tend agree with Ian and resist 4x optical - I use no more than 2x in Macro mode with the yellow flower lit.

At 80 -100m distance there is going to be a high discard ratio, even with a big bird like a goose. My first attempts at digiscoping were trying to shoot Peregrines at around 140 yards, and was devastated when none came out good ! I was advised to get closer and I now shoot sparrow sized birds right down to minimum focus, and larger birds at around no more than 20-25 yards if poss. Anything more for me is a record shot.This seems to improve "keepers". The whole thing about having an equivalent to a 'so many thousand' macro lens is misleading - you still need to get close. That is not always obvious from all the great photos in the gallery.

Best wishes,

Lindsay
 
Thanks, Christine.
It's already becoming a challenge to get the best out of it, and that's good.
Very helpful, you people. I'll see Andy's Forum now.
Thanks again, and have a nice evening.
Willem
 
Unless you have the time to use digital zoom to verify focus, I absolutely do not trust manual focusing. I'll use it in a pinch when I have little other choice, but that's about it. I usually get scope focus close and then let the autofocus take over. Its not 100%, but its the best I've found.

The problem with manual focus is that the LCD resolution is so much lower than the CCD resolution that it can look sharp when it isn't. If you resize one of your out of focus shots to 320x240, you might find that it too looks sharp at that size.

When I manually focus, I go back and forth between over-focus and under-focus and try to estimate the middle. I also stop down the camera if conditions allow. This will increas DOF slightly and can increase image contrast. Then I cross my fingers and toes.

You already understand that you are probably using too much overall magnification. That amount pretty much guarantees a soft image, but the picture should still be in focus.

You may not understand that distances of 80 and 100 meters usually introduce atmospheric effects that further degrade the image. The air is usually quieter early in the morning and you might get away with these long distances and high magnifications more easily then.

I hope that helps some. Good luck.
 
Thanks, Jay
Great informative website you got!
I still have to do much more experimenting, with all the good advice in mind.
I've been switching between manual and auto focusing. The one stop down suggestion is interesting, will try that also.
Enjoy the rest of your weekend!
Willem
 
willemw said:
IanF
Thanks for the quick advice. Do you happen to know what goes wrong with the timer, and would I have the same problems with a remote control? I would prefer to use a remote control, we haven't got that many sunny days here, and some wildlife prefer to <perform> early in the morning, or at dusk.
But I will certainly try your technique in a new series of tests. Will let you know the results!
Thanks again.
Willem

With the self timer, I suspect what's happening is that once you have set everything up on the camera, when you come to use the self timer it is recalculating the exposure and focus and so not selecting the bird or using the settings you want. Using a remote cable release you half depress the shutter to lock the camera settings and then fully depess the shutter wthout having released the shutter button first so taking the photo with the settings you have selected. It's easier to show than to describe!

Where the bird fills the LCD then you can successfully use the self timer as the camera obviously fixes on the largest bit filling the frame ie the bird.

Rather than use the infinity setting have you tried the macro setting as I much prefer it myself using the selectable five focus zones. By placing the bird in one of the smaller brackets I often find the camera will lock on accurately which may be more suitable for using the self timer.
 
Morning IanF
Had another round of 80-odd pictures this morning, quite fresh, so little atmospheric disturbance. Sunny morning, so 1/250 and sometimes 1/500 was possible. Optic zoom at 2,5 to 3,0. No self timer.
Basically the same results as with the self timer: after having pressed down the shutter, the LCD goes blank, and a definitively different picture re-appears in the LCD, less sharpness, flattened out colors. Just checked on the computer monitor: not good.
Would you have any experience with the coolpix cams doing this kind of thing? Someone said that the resolution of the LCD is so different, that the pictures you get on the LCD (when focusing) is always different from the LCD-picture when recording the data. Sounds logical to me.
Actually, I believe the 990 and 995 may have the same phenomenon.
Thanks for your attention.
Have a nice day.
Willem
 
Hi Willem,

The screen should go blank when pressing the shutter but on checking mine the recorded image that appears on the LCD looks pretty much the same as the one before the photo was taken. It does sound like it may be down to either the settings or the camera itself - I guess it's possible the lens to CCD is set different to the lens to CCD but I'd be inclined to explore the settings first rather than be sending off the camera for investigation. Have you tried the autofocus settings as well? As regards in camera adjustments I only have the focus confirmation activated, everything else is set to 'normal'. If they give the same results, then you may have to send it off. I hope it's still under guarantee.

One thing though the Goose photo did you work on it at all on the computer or is that simply resized from the camera ? I only ask because I invariably need to work on my photos as the CP4500 does produce soft photos. They all need sharpening to some degree. Contrast / saturation are usually okay although on dull days photos lack the contrast of ones taken on sunny days.
 
Hi Ian
Thanks for your comments.
The goose picture was resized, thats all. The blue heron included was taken this morning, f4.4, 1/500, 3xzoom, AF. Pic has been sharpened a bit, slightly more contrast, not more.
I'll try out the other advice later today, or tomorrow, and let you know. The picture on the LCD after the blank definitively is different from before the blank.
Regards
Willem
 

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willemw said:
and a definitively different picture re-appears in the LCD, less sharpness, flattened out colors.
Would you have any experience with the coolpix cams doing this kind of thing? Someone said that the resolution of the LCD is so different, that the pictures you get on the LCD (when focusing) is always different from the LCD-picture when recording the data. Sounds logical to me.
Actually, I believe the 990 and 995 may have the same phenomenon.
Thanks for your attention.
Have a nice day.
Willem

Hi Willem,

I too use the cp4500 and have noticed that i appear to have the subject really sharp and in focus, then on firing the shot, the image appears a lot less sharp in the LCD monitor. It leads to some frustration, but im not sure its a problem with the cam, because i can produce sharp shots. Not always as often as i would like. I do believe, the further you are trying to reach, ie increasing magnification of your scope and optical magnifier of the cam, increases the chance of soft, out of focus shots. Try the lowest magnification of your scope (cant remember the eye piece you have) and about half the total focal length of the cp4500 ( If you use your camera in aperture priority mode, and have the flower icon showing top right of LCD monitor, then this should be yellow) Another idea, is to try closer subjects, and see if this makes any difference. You may be able to see if the camera is able to produce sharp shots that way.

As has often been said to me, keep practicing and try and be progressive with your approach. Ive only been digi-scoping for about 3 months. Most shots, probably about 95 % i think arent worth a second look. When the 'one' that youve waited for turns up, you will know. So continue to be patient and enjoy....... Oh and welcome to the site......Look forward to seeing some of your shots............. :t:

tracker
 
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Hi tracker
After having done some more testing (which I shouldn't because a must prepare a few papers), I agree that the difference becomes nore obvious with higher magnification. I took some pictures from really closeby to up to 10-20 meters; there is a change in the LCD, but the picture itself is sharp.
As you have a 4500, may I ask you two more questions:
- when pressing the shutter halfway, there is a distinct activity of the camera: the LCD screen lights up a bit, and you can hear the cam focusing (again!). Normal?
- what exactly is one supposed to see with focus confirmation? With confirmation on, I see no difference in the picture at all. Its the same as with confirmation off.
Thanks
Willem
 
Hi Willem,

Yes, it is normal for there to be activity in the cam when it is focussing. Obviously, each time you remove pressure from the shutter release button, you need to let it focus again. This 'tracking' is what you most likely are hearing. Also, as part of the answer to your second question, that lighting up of the LCD screen as you press shutter half way, is usually the focus confirmation. A high-lighting of your subject to let you know it is in focus.
The more you use your cp4500, the more you will get used to the various sounds it makes. Personally, I do find the cp4500 rather sluggish at times as it tracks, or tries to focus on the object to be photographed. Its been said, that this can be speeded up by shooting in macro. (I shoot in Aperture Priority, with the flower icon visible top right of LCD monitor)

If you have Focus Confirmation set to 'On'.....see how the image is high-lighted when you press shutter halfway. Let us know how you get on.

tracker
 
Evening, tracker.
Did'nt know that the focus confirmation only is visible when pressing the shutter halfway. Will have to look at that tomorrow.
Thanks for your attention.
Keep you posted on the developments.
Cheers
Willem
 
Hi tracker
I don't expect much testing and development this week. I am preparing a business trip to the USA, departing Friday morning. The trip's business part will keep me busy until May 7, but then I'll have three full days in.....Yellowstone NP. You bet there will be a lot of testing there! Might send a message from there, about the first results.
See you
Willem
 
Iv'e just been scrolling through the tips you have been suggesting to Willem.Tracker ,is Aperture Priority when the A is in the bottom left hand corner.I always have the cam on Auto and use infinity,whenever I have tried Macro the picture is fuzzy,and I have not seen any of the little boxes that Ian is referring to .I have seen them on our Canon camera,and use them to focus,but have not come across them on the 4500,is it because I use the Auto settings?,Perhaps I am missing out somewhere.
 
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