Vanguard Endeavour ED IV? (2 Viewers)

WriterCJ · Dec 12, 2016

The-Wanderer said:
Calvin,

Your comments certainly whet my optical appetite but your review is not yet up, so I will wait to read it.

Have you reviewed the Nikon monarch HG which, at about twice the cost, should be significantly better, but I wonder if it is - is one in your review pipeline?

Not yet, no. The only Nikons I've reviewed on the site to date are the 8x42 EDG binocular and the excellent little ED50 fieldscope -- both back in April 2013. I must get on to them again. Thanks for the reminder.

I'll try and get the full EDIV review up on the site as soon as I can.

Cheers,

Calvin!

typo · Dec 12, 2016

Calvin,

I knew you were on the original reviewer list and wondered if Vanguard had changed their mind. Just me then

When they first shipped and were recalled around March Ian told me the ED IV didn't have dielectric coatings then. That story had changed by August at Birdfair and they have subsequently claimed 90% transmission. As far as I understand SK15 glass would only give a percent or so difference in transmission at 550nm which wouldn't be detectable. I don't think 90% is achievable with silver coated prisms. Interesting if the story has changed again.

I know there were a few ergonomic changes which I rather liked, but in the few minutes I had with it I wasn't spotting much visual difference from the original ED. Something I intended to check more thoroughly.

Look forward to reading your full review.

David

ceasar · Dec 12, 2016

David,

Silver coated prisms can get pretty bright.

Allbinos review of the Nikon HGL 8x32 DCF has a graph in it showing that it has over 90% transmission albeit most of that is in the green/red area of the spectrum but it does get well into the 90s. It is ranked #4 by Allbinos with the Nikon 8x32 EDG getting the #1 ranking in the 8x32 class. The EDG has Di-Electric prisms and its graph shows lower transmission than the 8x32 HGL.

http://www.allbinos.com/187-binoculars_review-Nikon_HG_L_8x32_DCF.html

I used my LXL (HGL) 8x32 binocular for years; since about 2006, and I can tell you that it is quite bright. I still have it. I took it out today and used it for a short time. Today is an overcast day where I live with some snow squalls passing through. I was looking into the undergrowth and canopy of the woods off my deck and I am still impressed at how bright it is. It was much brighter than my Swarovski 8x30 SLC (It was made in 2010) which I gave to my son.

Bob

typo · Dec 12, 2016

Bob,

I've only managed to try the HGL a couple of times but I found it a very likable binocular. I try not to comment on brightness perception as it doesn't seem to have much to do with peak transmission, but at the time I remember a FL and ELSV appeared brighter, and so did the EDG. However, I do know appearances can change markedly with the illuminating light.

Reflectance obviously varies with the wavelength but also with the angle of incidence. Maximum daylight visual sensitivity is around 550nm. Looking at multiple spectra for protected silver mirrors at different angles, reflectance is typically at 95 to 96%. Dielectric mirror coatings vary enormously in quality, but can exceed 99.5% for specific wavelengths (and angles). In a high quality binocular transmission at 550nm would be around 4% lower for silver than dielectric. The best SP models would be around 93% which would put the potential maximum for silver at 89%. The difference between silver and dielectric may be a little less in the red but much larger in the blue.

Arek has said his older plots should only be viewed for relative transmittance, not absolute value but it's worth pointing out that his comparatively recent data for the silver prismed Endeavour ED II x42s were both under 85% at 550nm.

David

WriterCJ · Dec 13, 2016

ceasar said:
David,

Silver coated prisms can get pretty bright.

Allbinos review of the Nikon HGL 8x32 DCF has a graph in it showing that it has over 90% transmission albeit most of that is in the green/red area of the spectrum but it does get well into the 90s. It is ranked #4 by Allbinos with the Nikon 8x32 EDG getting the #1 ranking in the 8x32 class. The EDG has Di-Electric prisms and its graph shows lower transmission than the 8x32 HGL.

http://www.allbinos.com/187-binoculars_review-Nikon_HG_L_8x32_DCF.html

I used my LXL (HGL) 8x32 binocular for years; since about 2006, and I can tell you that it is quite bright. I still have it. I took it out today and used it for a short time. Today is an overcast day where I live with some snow squalls passing through. I was looking into the undergrowth and canopy of the woods off my deck and I am still impressed at how bright it is. It was much brighter than my Swarovski 8x30 SLC (It was made in 2010) which I gave to my son.

Bob

Indeed, binoculars sporting silver coated prisms can deliver a very bright image. The Meoptas I've tried -- the superb little Meostar B1 8x32, and the chunky but optically outstanding Meostar B1 10x42 HD -- both perform really well in low light, and both sport silver-coated prisms -- as I presume do bins like the classic Leica Trinovid 8x32s that a birding friend of mine swears by.

All other things being equal I guess dielectric coatings on the prisms should result in a brighter image, but as we all know, other things are NEVER equal when it comes to optics

.

There also seems to be quite a disparity between perceived brightness in the field (which, lets face it, is all most birders are interested in) and measured transmission levels under lab conditions. Things like colour, contrast and shifting ambient light conditions all impact our perception of brightness. It's one of the trickiest things to assess when you're writing a hands-on review -- and I spend ages switching between bins comparing and contrasting different subjects in different light trying to get a "feel" for how they perform over time.

I'm sure my neighbours think I'm nuts when they see me standing in the front garden at twilight with four or five pairs of bins dangling from various appendages...

... they may have a point!

WriterCJ · Dec 13, 2016

And now for the science bit:

typo said:
Bob,

I've only managed to try the HGL a couple of times but I found it a very likable binocular. I try not to comment on brightness perception as it doesn't seem to have much to do with peak transmission, but at the time I remember a FL and ELSV appeared brighter, and so did the EDG. However, I do know appearances can change markedly with the illuminating light.

Reflectance obviously varies with the wavelength but also with the angle of incidence. Maximum daylight visual sensitivity is around 550nm. Looking at multiple spectra for protected silver mirrors at different angles, reflectance is typically at 95 to 96%. Dielectric mirror coatings vary enormously in quality, but can exceed 99.5% for specific wavelengths (and angles). In a high quality binocular transmission at 550nm would be around 4% lower for silver than dielectric. The best SP models would be around 93% which would put the potential maximum for silver at 89%. The difference between silver and dielectric may be a little less in the red but much larger in the blue.

Phew!:t:

WriterCJ · Dec 13, 2016

typo said:
Calvin,

I knew you were on the original reviewer list and wondered if Vanguard had changed their mind. Just me then

There was a lot going on with the marketing team as I recall -- guess I just pestered them at the right time

.

typo said:
When they first shipped and were recalled around March Ian told me the ED IV didn't have dielectric coatings then. That story had changed by August at Birdfair and they have subsequently claimed 90% transmission.

As far as I understand SK15 glass would only give a percent or so difference in transmission at 550nm which wouldn't be detectable. I don't think 90% is achievable with silver coated prisms. Interesting if the story has changed again.

That email from Ian stating that there are no dielectric coatings on any of Vanguard's prism systems was from the 17 October.

typo said:
I know there were a few ergonomic changes which I rather liked, but in the few minutes I had with it I wasn't spotting much visual difference from the original ED. Something I intended to check more thoroughly.

I'd say it's still evolution more than design revolution -- but whereas the EDII was essentially just an ED in different pyjamas, the EDIV seems to be more than that.

The hinges are chunkier, the focus wheel is bigger, it's a shade shorter in the barrel, the exposed metal running down the barrels between the hinges lends it a more sophisticated, premium look and it feels really good in the hand.

The differences are subtle... it's still a dual hinge roof prism that builds on the foundation of its predecessor... but it feels more like a redesign than a tweak.

I know you can't really get it from a photo, but here are all three Endeavors side-by-side for comparison: ED left, EDII centre, EDIV right.

WriterCJ · Dec 13, 2016

Eeek... don't let my wife see that photo or she'll be getting me to power-wash the patio outside my office!

ceasar · Dec 13, 2016

The picture in post #47 shows that the ED IV's diopter mechanism is now integrated with the focus wheel, previously it was located on the right eyepiece. That is a big difference.

The diopter setting wheel is located at the objective's end of the focus wheel. At this location it is more convenient if you can set it by touch by pushing it in and turning it rather than fiddling around and turning it with your thumb and finger.

Bob

WriterCJ · Dec 13, 2016

ceasar said:
The picture in post #47 shows that the ED IV's diopter mechanism is now integrated with the focus wheel, previously it was located on the right eyepiece. That is a big difference.

The diopter setting wheel is located at the objective's end of the focus wheel. At this location it is more convenient if you can set it by touch by pushing it in and turning it rather than fiddling around and turning it with your thumb and finger.

Bob

Yes, sorry Bob... should have mentioned that. Of course the dioptre being incorporated into the central body / top hinge is one of the bigger differences (along with the new prisms) -- the knurled dial is lockable, you click it out to adjust it and then click it back in to lock it into position.

typo · Dec 14, 2016

WriterCJ said:
Indeed, binoculars sporting silver coated prisms can deliver a very bright image. The Meoptas I've tried -- the superb little Meostar B1 8x32, and the chunky but optically outstanding Meostar B1 10x42 HD -- both perform really well in low light, and both sport silver-coated prisms -- as I presume do bins like the classic Leica Trinovid 8x32s that a birding friend of mine swears by.
!

To my embarasment, I realise I've never asked Meopta what prism coatings are used on the Meostar and Meopro. The product manager has told me at some length about how many coating machines they have and which type, and other capabilities. That certainly includes dielectric coating, but I think you might be right that the Meostar probably has silver.

Unlike most companies, Meopta quotes the photopic corrected integral of the transmission spectrum for their transmission figure, not a value at a specific wavelength. It means it's adjusted for the light sensitivity of the eye and should be a better indicator of 'brightness' and is the more correct scientific method. However it does make comparisons to other models difficult. Meopta have quoted 86% for the Meostar 10x42 HD and the 12x50 I recently reviewed at 89%. They actually sent me transmission plots as well which showed the 550nm value to be about 89.5, so in close agreement on this occasion. However for some of the other top models with a narrower transmission profile the integral could be significantly less.

For what it's worth, I thought the Meostar 12x50 HD was a pretty bright binocular, but I'd agree, why, is much more complicated than a single transmission value.

David

Racuuna · Dec 16, 2016

WriterCJ said:
I've had a pair of 10x42 Endeavor EDIV for review on the Ireland's Wildlife site since October, and whatever the foibles reported here with initial samples, it looks like Vanguard got a lot right with the production model.

The ergonomics are superb and optically they're a definite step up from the already impressive EDII. Bright, sharp image right across a pleasingly wide and immersive field of view. Very good low light performance... which must be down to the new SK15 prisms, because I asked about dielectric coatings and the head of Vanguard UK stated categorically that there are " No dielectric coatings on any of our prism systems… yet".

They do perform very well in low light -- and although they fall short of my 10x42 Swaros in terms of brightness as the light fades, they continue to deliver plenty of detail and good colour and contrast. The focus is a bit stiffer than it's predecessors, but not uncomfortably so, and for me the 1.5 turn focusing mechanism is an improvement. I found it easy to overshoot focus with both the ED and EDII -- not so with the EDIV.

Everything just feels like an improvement. It feels as if Vanguard has been listening to its end users / reviewers here, making lots of little changes. Seemingly insignificant things... like losing the clip system on the neckstrap (does any birder really use those?), so that now you can actually shorten the strap so the bins sit on your chest, not around your waist... and adding hydrophobic coatings on the external lens surfaces... add up to deliver a much more satisfying all-round user experience.

I'm still not about to trade my Swaros in for a pair of EDIV -- but I can genuinely say that this is the first Vanguard binocular I'd seriously consider as a contender if I was in the market.

I'll be posting a full review to the Ireland's Wildlife site soon, and have a competition running until midnight on Thursday to win a brand new pair direct from Vanguard in time for Christmas.

I'm not going to post the link to the forum, but you'll be able to find it if you want to.

Cheers,

Calvin!

Hello! How does the vanguard compare to the Eschenbach trophy ed you reviewed a couple months ago?

WriterCJ · Dec 19, 2016

Racuuna said:
Hello! How does the vanguard compare to the Eschenbach trophy ed you reviewed a couple months ago?

The Vanguard is a better binocular hands down.

Not that there's much wrong with the Eschenbach -- optically they're very capable, but I was never thrilled with the ergonomics of the odd shaped barrels.

I prefer the image through the Vanguards, and in terms of carrying and using them in the field they're streets ahead. Whatever foibles people noted with early samples of the EDIV it looks like Vanguard has listened -- because from what I've seen the production model is an excellent all-round binocular.

The more I use it, the more I want to use it -- which says it all really.

Cheers,

Calvin!

The-Wanderer · Dec 19, 2016

Calvin,

I did not know that early examples of the Endeavor ed IV hit the streets in Europe, or even in the USA or Australia where they were announced as being available.

Do you have links to reviews of these early samples, that you could post please?

WriterCJ · Dec 19, 2016

The-Wanderer said:
Calvin,

I did not know that early examples of the Endeavor ed IV hit the streets in Europe, or even in the USA or Australia where they were announced as being available.

Do you have links to reviews of these early samples, that you could post please?

As far as I know (and I think it was mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread) early samples of the EDIV started appearing in March, but they were recalled by Vanguard and not officially launched until August / September. I've seen no reviews of these early samples, or what was wrong with them, just rumours and snippets in forums and through direct correspondence. I've only seen the production 10x42 I'm currently reviewing and can't see much wrong with that -- so presumably whatever problems they had have been ironed out.

Interestingly the dioptre adjustment wheel on the product images on Vanguard's website looks different to the one I have on my desk here -- so presumable the shots on the site are of the "early" version.

WriterCJ · Dec 20, 2016

Review posted

Hi all... I posted my review of the EDIV to the Ireland's Wildlife site last night. I'm not going to post a link here -- had my wrist slapped / login blocked in the past for sharing even relevant on-topic links to my own site *sigh* -- but you should have no trouble finding it if you want to read it.

Overall I was very impressed with the binocular. It's not that there's one stand out feature -- more lots of small refinements that together add up to a significant step up. The EDIV just feels right -- the all-round experience of using it in the field is simply better (of course, as they say, YMMV).

The one downside I can -- or rather can't -- see is the absence of dielectric mirror coatings on the new SK15 prisms. I'm not sure how much it would actually improve the binocular's in-the-field performance, but in a market fuelled by perception, where similarly priced competition increasingly offers the feature, the decision may come back to haunt Vanguard.

Which is a shame... because there's an awful lot to like here.

Anyway... take a look at the review, and you'll see what I think. Overall it's an excellent binocular at the price, and as with its siblings in the Endeavor family it punches well above its weight in terms of performance and build quality.

The-Wanderer · Dec 20, 2016

Calvin,

Did you measure the eye relief or accept the manufacturer' specified distance?

Did you measure the longitudinal distance from the ocular to the plane of the eyepiece rim to enable calculation of the effecive/useable eye relief?

WriterCJ · Dec 20, 2016

The-Wanderer said:
Calvin,

Did you measure the eye relief or accept the manufacturer' specified distance?

Did you measure the longitudinal distance from the ocular to the plane of the eyepiece rim to enable calculation of the effecive/useable eye relief?

No, I didn't measure it -- that's the number quoted on the box (for some reason they've stopped showing eye-relief on the website specs).

I don't really have the measurement gear to hand to measure accurately, but a quick and dirty approximation using a length of plastic coated wire-fastener and a ruler suggests that from the surface of the ocular to the rim of the eyepiece is 16mm rather than the quoted 19mm.

Just looked back at the specs I have for the EDII 8x42 (quoted eye relief of 19.5mm) and they correctly measure between 19 and 20mm using the same crude method. I wonder has Vanguard inadvertently quoted the 8x42 model's eye relief on the 10x42 box?

Will check with Vanguard and update the review accordingly.

Cheers,

Calvin!

The-Wanderer · Dec 20, 2016

Calvin,

I suppose I was remiss in not stating that the rim of the eye cup should be in the rotated down position.

WriterCJ · Dec 21, 2016

The-Wanderer said:
Calvin,

I suppose I was remiss in not stating that the rim of the eye cup should be in the rotated down position.

Oops... I should have realised that. My mistake.

No micrometer handy, and no real way to properly measure these things. I review optics based on using them in the field, not measuring optical, physical and mechanical characteristics in the lab. I'm not really trying to verify whether the figures quoted by the manufacturer are accurate. I'm more interested in how the instrument performs in the field for its intended use.

For what it's worth (probably not much) I had no problem seeing the full field of view with the eye-cups rotated down while wearing various items of eyewear (old sunglasses I keep for just that purpose). Of course your mileage probably will vary, so that may not help you.

Apologies for the measurement mix-up -- I'll let you know if / when Vanguard comes back with a confirmation of the eye-relief.

Cheers,

Calvin!

Vanguard Endeavour ED IV? (2 Viewers)

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