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Marsh Reed? (2 Viewers)

hannu said:
Thanx Alsirhan, that you share very interesting cases to us in the BirdForum !
In this way I can improve my id skills !

Hear hear,
Threads like this show BF at its best, when we can have a sensible discussion over the identification of a tricky bird.

My own impression hasn't changed in that I still believe the bird is a hippo sp , probably Olivacious, but I am open to all suggestions.

Darrell
 
Darrell and 'other Hippo fans' ;-)
I don't see that long bill-look as it should be in Hippo pallida. Also I have not read that the peaked crown is the Hippo feature. And where it is said that Hippo has feint yellow wash ?
 
hannu said:
Jane, I don't see an indistinct and pale brownish grey lore which is typically to Hippo on the Alsirhan's bird!

Funny - its precisely the presence of pale lores that make me think its a Hippo.
 
hannu said:
Darrell and 'other Hippo fans' ;-)
I don't see that long bill-look as it should be in Hippo pallida. Also I have not read that the peaked crown is the Hippo feature. And where it is said that Hippo has feint yellow wash ?

We are used to European birds which are the largest billed. South and east of Europe the bill is a great deal smaller according to BWP.
 
hannu said:
Thanx Alsirhan, that you share very interesting cases to us in the BirdForum !
In this way I can improve my id skills!

I am enjoying the discussion very much like you and trying to see what others can see and add things to my observation to enhance my identification skills.


hannu said:
Alsirhan,
do you have any photo where the tail of bird was better on view ?
I'll try really to clear up this 'mystery', so it helps, if we can rule out Hippo or Acro-species definitely and conclusively?

I am sorry I don't! I took 11 photos of the bird within 50 seconds (this is shown on my digital camera EXIF file) non of them show better view than the 4th picture, other photos are similar with head turned to right or left.

Here are some more. #8 and #3 show the inner rectrices longer that ouer ones!
I have only 3 photos left that don't show much.

Alsirhan.
 

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As already mentioned before: Look at the undertail coverts - they seem to cover about 2/3 of the undertail! A feature never seen in Hippolais warblers...
 
Amsel said:
As already mentioned before: Look at the undertail coverts - they seem to cover about 2/3 of the undertail! A feature never seen in Hippolais warblers...


They don't look any longer than this one Amsel - which is a Greek eastern Olly - in an Olive tree!

A further negative for and acro is the absence of a dark eye-stripe.

The most compelling feature for me though is the shape of the bill. The mystery bird (right) has a hugely wide base to its bill (like a Hippo) compared to an Acro -
 

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mmmmmmmmmmmmmm......

Now my counting abilities are in question! I now see only 7 exposed primaries beyond the tertials, which are indeed quite worn.

In your photo's Jane, the Olivaceous all show 6 exposed primaries. The broken outer tail feather does appear paler in one of the pics, too.

I'm swinging back in your direction of it possibly being an Olivaceous.

I am looking today on my PC monitor, which is much better quality than my laptop one - and the bird looks much more like a hippo.

GV
 
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Ghostly Vision said:
mmmmmmmmmmmmmm......

Now my counting abilities are in question! I now see only 7 exposed primaries beyond the tertials, which ar eindeed quite worn.

In your photo's Jane, the Olivaceous all show 6 exposed primaries. The broken outer tail feather does appear paler in one of the pics, too.

I'm swinging back in your direction of it possibly being an Olivaceous.

I am looking today on my PC monitor, which is much better quality than my laptop one - and the bird looks much more like a hippo.

GV

I can't find pics of the S Eastern races - which are allegegly longer-winged and shown as having 7 pps in BWP (if you trust the illustrations)
 
Jane Turner said:
I can't find pics of the S Eastern races - which are allegegly longer-winged and shown as having 7 pps in BWP (if you trust the illustrations)


In that case - I'm convinced on Eastern Olivaceous

GV
 
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This case has been very educative ! I did not see those features which some of you clearly saw ! But new attached photos (6, 7 & 8) due to me thinking that bird is Hippo.

There has been 3 things which has confused me in this case since beginning and which does not confirm my attitude (that bird is Marsh W) :

1) bird has much greyish colour/tinge in the plumage (not so typical to Marsh),

2) the shape of bill (side profile is like a some kind of dagger, thought it seems to be quite stout in certain views, except new photos 6, 7 and 8)

3) And possibly that tertials overdraw so much those secondaries !

I agree now with Jane and she's attention "The most compelling feature:The mystery bird (right) has a hugely wide base to its bill (like a Hippo) " This is really true !

Also in some Hippo photos Darrel mentioned 'peaked crown' indeed is in evidence.

When I fixed (sharpened) the photo in my photo program, I think that inner tail feathers are shorter or same lenght as the outer tfs, so this refer also to Hippo.
Marsh W's rounding of tail is possible to see in the closed tail, thought in this case bird's outer tf is broken.
Regarding white edge of outer tail feather, probably this feature is possible to see in the photo 4, where we can see that the feather is broken.

These new photos clearly shows us that bird's head is very uniform, grey and there is no contrast (probably this peaked crown causes shades to the head and that's why I supposed that the head is more brown than grey.

In addition to it's very difficult to say about the emarginations, where these species differ remarkably.

I'm convinced that bird is really Hippo.
 
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Hippo-species have also the rictal bristles, but Hippo's ones are mainly straight, whereas Acro's ones are curved.

One more id tip between these species:
Also Hippo-species have mainly darker eyes than Acro-species in adult birds !
 
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Ghostly Vision said:
...and the tail feather on that bird looks like it is about to break in exactly the same place as the original bird's!! Conclusive evidence!

Thanks for the excellent tips, Hannu. Didn't know that about the straight/curved rictal bristles!

GV

It's also true that eye colour -detail (+rictal bristles),....
Icterina Warbler:
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa/Hict040704Halias2.jpg
Marsh Warbler
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa/Acrris06082004Laajis1.jpg

In addition to:
Photo 6 & 7 shows us, that lower mandible + yellow colour looks like a 'straw stick' !
 
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In fact 1st, 4th, 6 & 7 photos 'really' shows us, that the tail colour of Alsirhan's bird is not same as in the rump (thus a different colour). Colour does not differ so much between tail and rump in Marsh Warblers.

Alsirhan's bird - summary (# photo number):
Hippolais, because
- very broad bill (The broadness of the bill base) #4, (8)
- mouth yellow of Olivaceous #4
- lower mandible + yellow colour looks like a 'straw stick'
(MW > pale, but at most yellowish) #6, 7, 8
- very pale tertial edges (a hint of a hippolais secondary panel) #2,3,5,7,8
- slightly shorter inner tail feathers than outer tail feathers #4,6
- outer tail feather does appear paler in one of the pics #4
- dark colour of tail #1,2,4,6,7
- greyer upperpart
- The 7 primaries exposed beyond the tertials #2,3,5,8 (variate at least 6-7)
(Marsh W mainly 9, sometimes 8, depending from the wearing of tertials or something else, but this feature is not absolute. When MW has 9 primaries exposed beyond the tertials and tertials overdrawed secondaries, it often means that distance between innermost primary feather and outermost secondary feather is more bigger than lenght of tertials owerdrawing)
- quite dark eye #1,2,3,5,6,7,8
(- the peaked crown # 1,2,3,5,7 (8), this feature should be connect with bird's behaviour (it must study in the field in which situation bird bristle head feathers and on that way we can truly say, does it clear specific species 'ritual' ) )

Svensson has written from EOW in his book:
"Pale sandy-brown above... the rump is tinged ochrous. The underparts are on average more cream-coloured than in Western..." and elsewhere: "..greyer upperparts which are slightly tinged olive when fresh."

So Alsirhan, do you have any comment ?
 
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