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Are all sparrows of the devil? (1 Viewer)

wrambler

new birder
From researching on this forum and elsewhere, it's obvious that House (aka English) Sparrows are loved in some areas but I'm starting to see the reason they're loathed in so many other locations (I'm in the United States, Central Texas). In just a few days a group of about 10 female and male house sparrows have taken ownership of my 2 feeders and I'm starting to see evicted eggs on the ground around my yard. Who knows what damage they're doing to any young in the nests but I'm sure it isn't pretty. The titmouse, chickadees, young cardinals, young blue jays, etc are ganged-up on and chased-off as soon as they land on the feeders. I'm even seeing less activity at the hummingbird feeders (maybe unrelated, although I have seen a sparrow perched on the hummingbird feeder). The only birds that seem to be able to fight back are the full grown male cardinal and blue jay.

We've already moved to black sunflower & safflower seed, and the sparrows approach the feeders from all angles so I don't see much use in hanging wire or a "halo." If things don't settle down in a few days, I plan to thin the house sparrow population at my feeder to allow all the other birds to return.

So this gets me to my questions:

- The female house sparrows look similar to song sparrows, are song sparrows as invasive as the house sparrow?

- What about other sparrows? Savannah, vesper, etc?

- I love seeing a variety of birds, which we've been fortunate to experience until the recent house sparrow takeover. Are there any other invasive birds I need to watch for around my feeders in Central Texas?

Thanks in advance for you help!
 
Ten sparrows responsible for so much damage! Eggs evicted all over the shop, Blue Jays ganged up on, cardinals, hummingbirds and chickadees all falling by the wayside, the massive population of, er, ten birds needing to be 'thinned out' ...gee, House Sparrows must have inherited a mutant gene when introduced to the States! Or not.
 
Yes, it's like birdageddon around here! Bill the Butcher and his sparrow henchmen (and women) have moved in on the peace-loving hippie birds. We're double locking the doors and hoping things settle down.
 
House Sparrows are pretty chilled birds. They don't generally fight over the feeder, but an increase in population might just mean you need to put more food out. Don't 'thin' them out for goodness sake!
 
hmm, maybe a response from someone in the US, who has experience with the aggressive strain of house sparrow we have here?

... and by "thin," I just mean I'm going to clap loudly in a stern manner.
 
And just yesterday I was so happy to see the similarly sized flock a few dozen meters from my building (as they were misteriously missing for a few years)
I think your other birds are conditioned to be too meek - basically they are not used to stand up for themselves. Our Great Tit is dominant to House Sparrow at feeders, and I saw pictures of a Greenfinch sitting next to the hole where seeds drop out and monopolizing the feeder while sparrows stood around sheepishly. It's all about attitude, it seems.
BTW other American sparrows are in the bunting family so they are a completely different type of bird
 
hmm, maybe a response from someone in the US, who has experience with the aggressive strain of house sparrow we have here?

... and by "thin," I just mean I'm going to clap loudly in a stern manner.

I had a similar problem when I used to have the feeders up. They were very aggressive towards the Goldfinches. The Goldfinches lost the battle and it was rare to have any at the window feeder. I then switched to all Nyjer seed. After I switched the seed the H.Sparrows would still come, but less and less each day. Some would peck at the food, but not eat alot. They don't normally eat this type of seed and after a while they moved on. They were replaced with Goldfinches and House Finches. Once in a while a H.Sparrow would come over and eat just a few seeds and fly away.
It really seemed to work (but with only Nyjer seed...no mixes).

I felt a little bad for the House Sparrows so I would put a little food out (away from the window feeder) for them once in a while. I also had a ground feeder for the Doves. There was too much fighting over food and I had all of this in a tiny plot of grass in the front of my apartment...not a lot of room. So, I decided to stop feeding birds altogether. I still put a little out in the winter here and there.
 
And just yesterday I was so happy to see the similarly sized flock a few dozen meters from my building (as they were misteriously missing for a few years)
I think your other birds are conditioned to be too meek - basically they are not used to stand up for themselves. Our Great Tit is dominant to House Sparrow at feeders, and I saw pictures of a Greenfinch sitting next to the hole where seeds drop out and monopolizing the feeder while sparrows stood around sheepishly. It's all about attitude, it seems.
BTW other American sparrows are in the bunting family so they are a completely different type of bird

Maybe the titmouse and chickadees are somewhere establishing their alliances and drawing up plans to retake the yard, I don't know. In all seriousness, it would be great to see some of these other birds stand up for themselves. Thanks for the pointer on bunting family, something else interesting to learn about.
 
House Sparrows?

My colony of Tree Sparrows have taken over the garden.They tolerate the House Sparrows,but the only "aggressor" they will back off to are the juvenile Goldfinches.
Of course ,the larger,more clumsy,visitors ,such as the Collared Doves ,they just wait for them to go. We have a pair of Ring Necked Parakeets,but they are yet to their luck!
 
House Sparrows are the most common visitors to my feeders, but I find they are unwilling to use the tube feeder, especially when it's filled with nyjer - that one attracts the House Finches and especially Lesser Goldfinch. So I think the trick is to have several different types of feeders. There's no getting rid of them unless you stop feeding altogether, although removing any of their preferred feeders may reduce the numbers visiting.

As for your other questions, Song and other sparrows are not related to House Sparrows and are ecologically different - and none nest in cavities near houses as do the House Sparrows. They also tend not to visit feeders, although in areas with appropriate brushy cover they may come to eat seed spilled underneath the feeders.

House Sparrows get a bad rap here because they compete with native species for nest cavities, but they're not necessarily more aggressive than in Europe. In fact they occupy a lot of areas that native species wouldn't use anyway due to habitat loss - such as the patch of sand and exotic palms and oleander that form our pitiful "yard" in our rental house in Tucson - so personally I've decided to let myself enjoy them.
 
House Sparrows get a bad rap here because they compete with native species for nest cavities, but they're not necessarily more aggressive than in Europe.

I am quite sure this is true, but you wouldn't imagine it by the response of some on your side of the Atlantic - a quick google search will reveal numerous sites, some by organisations that should know better (for example, one or two Audubom Society pages) that are simply whipping up paranoia ("House Sparrows and Starlings will evict ANY bird, even Kestrels and Wood Ducks" or " House Sparrows kill simply for the purpose of killing", etc, etc. There are certainly sites that almost plead for persons to eradicate the birds at all costs, printing up pages of methods, some of which I seriously doubt are very humane. Even an Audubom page encourages the use of a trap that could catch anything (with a comment, 'please remember to check every 24 hours to release native species caught'), another suggests one method of killing the birds as 'put them in a plastic bag and attach to the exhaust of your car', etc.

Even for species needing to be controlled or culled, I truly cannot see any conservation body/animal welfare organisation in Europe trying to encourage your average untrained/unskilled Joe Smith to conduct the operation as they see fit. A different mentality, and sorry to say, I simply don't really understand the joy that some persons seem to derive in killing their sparrows while at the same time saying they are bird lovers. Some years ago, a poster on Bird Forum took great joy, like some sort of video game to get extra points, in explaining his accounts of shooting the sparrows at his feeders.

I am certainly not suggesting wrambler falls into this category at all, but alarm bells always start ringing when a US poster begins with a post named 'Are all sparrows of the devil?'
 
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When the sparrows are monopolising the feeders I often stand at the kitchen window and stare very hard at them. That always gets rid of them for a few minutes.


Trouble is, it has the same effect on all the other birds.
 
While I certainly don't condone killing them, I can understand many birders frustrations. I feed them, along with any other native species. Do I wish they weren't here? Sure, but I'm not going to kill them. It isn't their fault they are here.

For BF members in Europe, is there any thing even remotely close to our House Sparrow or Starling invasion? Estimates for our House Sparrow populations run from 70 to several hundred million, with Starling populations generally accepted to be over 200 million and it is frequently the most commonly reported bird on the Cornell/Audubon Great Backyard Bird Count.

I've seen quite a few comments about invasive species such as Ruddy Duck and Canada Geese in Europe, but what kind of magnitude are we talking about?
 
House sparrow

I am quite sure this is true, but you wouldn't imagine it by the response of some on your side of the Atlantic - a quick google search reveal numerous sites, some by organisations that should know better (for example, one or two Audubom Society pages) that are simply whipping up paranoia ("House Sparrows and Starlings will evict ANY bird, even Kestrels and Wood Ducks" or " House Sparrows kill simply for the purpose of killing", etc, etc. There are certainly sites that almost plead for for persons to eradicate the birds at all costs, printing up pages of methods, some of which I seriously doubt are very humane. Even an Audubom page encourages the use of a trap that could catch anything (with a comment, 'please remember to check every 24 hours to release native species caught'), another suggests one method of killing the birds as 'put them in a plastic bag and attach to the exhaust of your car', etc.

Even for species needing to be controlled or culled, I truly cannot see any conservation body/animal welfare organisation in Europe trying to encourage your average untrained/unskilled Joe Smith to conduct the operation as they see fit. A different mentality, and sorry to say, I simply don't really understand the joy that some persons seem to derive in killing their sparrows while at the same time saying they are bird lovers. Some years ago, a poster on Bird Forum took great joy, like some sort of video game to get extra points, in explaining his accounts of shooting the sparrows at his feeders.

I am certainly not suggesting wrambler falls into this category at all, but alarm bells always start ringing when a US poster begins with a post named 'Are all sparrows of the devil?'
I have to say that has quite saddened
Me on the details you gave on the audubon society dealing with house Sparrows, generally the house sparrow knows how to look after him/herself
when needed but like someone else mentioned earlier on this post the house
Sparrow is a chilled out species they will disagree and argue as other birds
Will usually over food but I have never found them disruptive or a menace to
Other nesting birds and I would rather hear them chirping and cheeping in the
Morning than non at all they have a wonderful character, occasionally as is
The way of the house sparrow they will gang up in small gangs and will attack
Older house sparrows (the ones I,ve seen have always been old cock birds)
There way of seeing their old neibours out the door has nature planed not
Sure how many other species of birds do that, yes has the saying go,s my old
Sparrow or cockney sparrow... :)
 
For BF members in Europe, is there any thing even remotely close to our House Sparrow or Starling invasion? Estimates for our House Sparrow populations run from 70 to several hundred million, with Starling populations generally accepted to be over 200 million and it is frequently the most commonly reported bird on the Cornell/Audubon Great Backyard Bird Count.

I've seen quite a few comments about invasive species such as Ruddy Duck and Canada Geese in Europe, but what kind of magnitude are we talking about?

It depends on the locality, I guess. Here in the city we have tons of Hooded Crows, which are THE dominant bird, period. Nobody is above them in the pecking order, and they are virtually everywhere - you cannot snap a picture outdoors without them being somewhere in it. As we are a city, we also have Feral Pigeons (my friend recently wrote a lengthy blog about them being the invisible elephant in the room as they are everywhere and noone actually notices them) and in summer months, Swifts are plentiful.

The other birds have a much smaller number of individuals. Great Tit is common but they do not make flocks larger than a dozen (make it two dozen for combos with Blue Tit, Nuthatch, Woodpeckers) as larger groups split into this preferred size. House and Tree Sparrows also split into smaller groups so it is difficult to count them. It is not that flocks of sparrows darken skies like queleas or something - you see small groups by the side of paths and walk by them, and there are new birds by the next bush etc. House Sparrows prefer certain types of buildings, with more suitable holes for breeding, AND boats. Barn Swallows in the city nest mostly on boats; I guess some of the nests are taken by sparrows but colonies stay strong and there are always juvenile swallows around.

We do not have exotic wildfowl so far (I haven't seen either Canada Goose or Ruddy Duck in any of the city's hotspots). Winter waterbird flocks are a normal thing at the rivers, and last winter we met several times to drink tea and watch ducks through scopes at a particularly good spot.
 
I am quite sure this is true, but you wouldn't imagine it by the response of some on your side of the Atlantic - a quick google search will reveal numerous sites, some by organisations that should know better (for example, one or two Audubom Society pages) that are simply whipping up paranoia ("House Sparrows and Starlings will evict ANY bird, even Kestrels and Wood Ducks" or " House Sparrows kill simply for the purpose of killing", etc, etc. There are certainly sites that almost plead for persons to eradicate the birds at all costs, printing up pages of methods, some of which I seriously doubt are very humane. Even an Audubom page encourages the use of a trap that could catch anything (with a comment, 'please remember to check every 24 hours to release native species caught'), another suggests one method of killing the birds as 'put them in a plastic bag and attach to the exhaust of your car', etc.

Even for species needing to be controlled or culled, I truly cannot see any conservation body/animal welfare organisation in Europe trying to encourage your average untrained/unskilled Joe Smith to conduct the operation as they see fit. A different mentality, and sorry to say, I simply don't really understand the joy that some persons seem to derive in killing their sparrows while at the same time saying they are bird lovers. Some years ago, a poster on Bird Forum took great joy, like some sort of video game to get extra points, in explaining his accounts of shooting the sparrows at his feeders.

I am certainly not suggesting wrambler falls into this category at all, but alarm bells always start ringing when a US poster begins with a post named 'Are all sparrows of the devil?'

Facetious post titles aside - the reason the Audubon society warns about house sparrows in this country is because that IS how they behave in this country. I don't know why - but they do. I have seen the results. They do, in fact, drive off any bird from a nesting site they decide they want - or more usually kill it and destroy the eggs. Then they build their nest in its place, sometimes right on top of the dismembered bodies. They can, will, and do take over every nesting site in an area.

In their place, eg in GB/UK and other places to which they are native, I'm sure they are just fine. But here, yes, house sparrows ARE of the devil.

If my aim and eyesight were better I'd feel no compunction whatsoever in shooting every house sparrow in sight. (I'm about half kidding - but only half. I have allowed house sparrows to feed at my feeders when they are in the minority and not out of control, though I probably shouldn't). They commit horrendous amounts of ecological damage. They are the kudzu of the bird world in the US. They do, in fact, compete VERY aggressively for nesting sites and feed on this side of the pond, directly and indirectly killing native songbirds.

CornellLab "The Trouble with House Sparrows"

BTW: It is STARLINGS that take over Kestrel and wood duck sites. Per Tulsa Audubon society:

" Whatever negative qualities a House Sparrow bears, a Starling is much worse. They also take over nesting cavities and will evict birds larger than themselves like Flickers, Wood Ducks and Kestrels. Starlings are messy, quarrelsome, aggressive, and noisy. They gather by the thousands in their winter roosts and in the Spring nest in cavities to produce 2-3 broods."

I did a web search on the phrase you quoted and came up with a match only here. Everywhere else, it is STARLINGS that are discussed driving out wood ducks and kestrels. Not HOSPs.
 
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Facetious post titles aside - the reason the Audubon society warns about house sparrows in this country is because that IS how they behave in this country. They do, in fact, drive off any bird from a nesting site they decide they want - or more usually kill it and destroy the eggs. .

So, as on the numerous websites in the US, the facts as as they say, yes? Sparrows kill simply for the sake of killing? Can displace any bird?

And as for methods, is it responsible for Audubon and all the purple martin/bluebird fanclubs to publish and encourage lay persons to use traps which they freely admit can catch any species, native of otherwise? Adding the caveat, check traps at least once every 24 hours is a joke - even if the trapped birds don't die in that 24 hours, and even if the average lay person doesn't forget to check every day, then still it is a joke - if the bird is breeding, 24 hours trapped is potentially going to lead to death of birds in nests waiting to be fed.

And methods of dispatch, put the birds in a plastic bag and attach to your car exhaust. Stand to be corrected, but pretty sure that would be illegal in much of Europe!

If Audubon and conservation bodies think the species should be culled, then an organised, planned and effective strategy should be devised at a large scale, not a campaign of misinformation to try and get a patchwork of untrained persons to randomly kill birds at their particular locality (a totally ineffective means as neighbouring populations will be untouched).

You honestly think the approach to House Sparrows in the US at present is the best?
 
Facetious post titles aside - the reason the Audubon society warns about house sparrows in this country is because that IS how they behave in this country. I don't know why - but they do. I have seen the results. They do, in fact, drive off any bird from a nesting site they decide they want - or more usually kill it and destroy the eggs. Then they build their nest in its place, sometimes right on top of the dismembered bodies. They can, will, and do take over every nesting site in an area.

In their place, eg in GB/UK and other places to which they are native, I'm sure they are just fine. But here, yes, house sparrows ARE of the devil.

If my aim and eyesight were better I'd feel no compunction whatsoever in shooting every house sparrow in sight. (I'm about half kidding - but only half. I have allowed house sparrows to feed at my feeders when they are in the minority and not out of control, though I probably shouldn't). They commit horrendous amounts of ecological damage. They are the kudzu of the bird world in the US. They do, in fact, compete VERY aggressively for nesting sites and feed on this side of the pond, directly and indirectly killing native songbirds.

You vastly exaggerate the harm House Sparrows cause native birds which outside suburban backyards is close to zero in most places. In my very birdy suburban backyard in Reno they do no harm at all as far as I can tell. As for aggressiveness to other hole nesters, they're pretty much on a par with many other competitors for this scarce resource and certainly no worse than such native species as House Wrens and Tree Swallows.

As others have pointed out, there's nothing "demonic" about House Sparrows which are just birds like any others. They've co-evolved with humans for millennia in the Old World and while not native to North America specifically they are native to us--settled humanity--wherever we live and once established around human settlements anywhere they tend to flourish, out-competing more poorly adapted species--"native" or otherwise.
 
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