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Flat Field technology: the hows, the why's, the consequences (1 Viewer)

Alexis:

I suppose we all have a wish list, and I have seen you wanting some
makers to offer a variable ratio focuser.

I feel that is a complex requirement that I or most do not have a need
or want for. Keep things dependable and reliable.

Swarovski, if you are watching, I would not put this anywhere near the
list of things to do.

Alexis, the Brunton Epoch is now on a clearance sale and this model has a variable ratio focuser.
Discontinued and gone.

So there is your wish. :smoke:

Jerry

I'm really only advocating for variable-ratio in bins with close focus, especially those supposedly no-compromises super-bins like the SV and SF where the designers have taken the trouble to give them super close focus ability. However, variable-ratio focus would be of great benefit to many other bins, and many other users (see end of last paragraph, below), so I hope others will take up the cause when they realize what it could do for them.

The SV and SF designs are awesome, but since they have a fairly standard (SF) or slow (SV) focus ratio, the benefit of the close focus is not fully realized (for the SF) or severely compromised (for the SV) for those who would actually use it continually (e.g. butterflyers). Those bins have almost reached the pinnacle of what is possible with existing (and non-electronic) technology, but unfortunately are half-baked designs with respect to utility of their close focus. Frankly, I think Swarovski and Zeiss should be EMBARRASSED for its absence, just as they should be embarrassed to have taken so long (~30 years after Nikon, and much longer since advent of the technology) to offer flat-field bins for birding. These top-end bins are, like sports cars, as much or more about corporate prestige (bragging rights) as they are about meeting practical needs, so I don't think the bino makers should hold back just because folks who use bins like I do are a small percentage of potential buyers (Likewise, folks with IPD under 56 mm are only a few percent of buyers, but if bins can be built to accommodate them without much trouble, I'd like to see it done).

The FL hit a sweet spot in my opinion with respect to its close focus ability and focus ratio. The SV, SF and similar would do well to follow its example, or better yet, incorporate variable-ratio. I don't understand why variable-ratio design needs to be complex or add cost. I don't think it has to be. Brunton, Pentax, and Minox have all come out with reliable variable-ratio models, none of them priced above the conventional focus competition of the same overall quality. The Brunton Epoch (at least the older versions and more recent top-end versions) has a beautiful focus, but unfortunately the overall optical performance is not quite as good as that of Zeiss or Swarovski. And for butterflying, the Epoch has a big flaw in having a very narrow FOV and so little field overlap at close distances. Now that the Epoch is gone, it is the perfect time for Swarovski, Leica, Zeiss or Nikon to finally use it since they can market it as a new, unique feature.

I know variable-ratio focus isn't something that most buyers are asking for, but I think that mostly has to do with ignorance of what it is, or that it is possible. Brunton had a hard time marketing the advantages to its clientele, and never effectively reached out to the potential consumer constituencies that would most benefit. Minox and Pentax haven't even tried to market it. Who benefits from variable-ratio? In tandem with close-focusing design, it is butterflyer+birders like me, or those who use bins similarly, who have the most to gain. But more generally, anyone with poor accommodation (e.g. old people) should appreciate the design since it eliminates the usually inevitable trade-off between focusing speed and focusing precision across a bin's focus limits. It would be a really nice feature for high-powered bins, as it would allow dialing in the focus near infinity very precisely without compromising the ability to quickly focus on subjects at mid-range distances. So in my dreams, I can picture a consumer coalition between butterflyers and long-distance rifle hunters/varmint shooters in advocating for variable-ratio focus in bins!

--AP

PS -- Looks like Nikon agrees with Brunton, Minox, and Pentax about the virtues of variable-ratio focus. I just received a private message pointing out that the Nikon EDG scopes are equipped as such. I can't believe I never noticed this before, or that no one previously called it to my attention. Check out this excerpt from the catalog (see attached). The graph is maybe a little screwy, but the overall message points to its utility in scopes, just as I argued above for high-powered bins. C'mon Nikon (and Swarovski, Zeiss, and Leica), let's see wider employment of variable-ratio focus in those bins that would most benefit!
 

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Jerry,

You really ought to make some effort to set aside your biases and really look at an Epoch ;). Yes they are discontinued and gone, but they are a very good binocular. They were pretty optimistically priced, if I recall they were always listed as just about the most expensive glass on the market.

However, that variable rate focus is likely the best focus system ever put on a binocular. So at these prices, if a variable ratio focus is on anybody's wish list, this is a good chance to get one. For now the only chance. Swarovski or anybody else would be wise to look more closely at it. There is likely some patent issues securing it to Brunton.

Steve:

I am not sure about my biases, but Brunton has not been an optics
player and has not had much if any mention in a post on this site for years.
It certainly has not any attention of hunters either.
I am not inclined to purchase one now on closeout, but it seems you
should, and let us know how they perform.;)

You said it why the market experiment failed. Price things in the Alpha
clouds and expect to compete and sell with the best. It did not work.
I deal with mechanical things everyday, last year my repair bill was
around $18K, on my farm business, just getting ready for my tax appointment.
A variable rate focuser is difficult to design, and I believe more complex
to build with precision. Think about a lifetime warranty, Brunton has
now relieved themselves of that.

Alexis: I should not be so hard on your wish list. I just feel a very
close focus ability, and that means closer than we have today, and
a variable rate focuser rate, rank down around 9 and 10 out of 10 on
most binoculars users wish lists. That means not desired very much.


Jerry
 
I suppose that the various manufacturers have to determine how much variable focus will add to the cost of the binoculars and whether it will make a difference in their sales. It can't be technically that difficult to accomplish. More importantly, what effect will it have, for better or worse, on their sales if rival manufacturers choose not to add it to their binoculars?

Bob
 
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I'd like to say thanks to everyone contributing to this thread. It's enlightening, exploring the concepts thoroughly with nice footnotes and references. Good stuff guys.

Renze
 
;)Renze:

Now with your new Avatar, it may be unfortunate you have showed your true colors.

Now, we all know you really do need some help and advice.;)

Beyond the obvious, the flat field binoculars that are now available, are
better than the lesser models that are on the marketplace today.

Jerry
 
Jerry,

May I remind you that the Dutch have helped themselves for more than 40.000 years? And yet, we will never wave off help or advice. We just say thank you, and smile. Recently some experts from the Austrian Alps were so kind to bestow flat field upon us. While 75 % of our country is perfectly flat already, it's really, really difficult not to see flat fields over here. So we're smiling.

N.E. Anderthal
 
OK....time to put it all together.

Some optical engineering history:

http://www.brayebrookobservatory.org/BrayObsWebSite/HOMEPAGE/forum/Smyth-Barlow lenses.html

The first field flattener in refractive use came from the Scotsman Charles Piazzi Smyth in 1873.
In 1911, Moritz von Rohr applied it to a Zeiss camera lens.
In 1944, Albert König used a Smyth field flattener in a U-Boat periscope.

The Kohler eyepiece (1959), predcessor to the Nagler, has this flattening technology.
Figure 37-55 shows the flattening effects on spherical aberration, astigmatism, and (shape) distortion.
Both the Kohler and the Nagler can be said to have 'field flattening technology'.
That is their main hallmark.

Finally:

A. Tronnier of Schneider Kreuznach, actually applied field flattening technology to
Ww-2 observation binoculars....an Erfle, a wedge, and the Smyth flattener.

You can find a Smyth / pseudo-Barlow flattener in early Bushnell Custom Compacts.
This predates flattening technology in most non-military binoculars.

So the very first use of all time was with a Scotsman long ago,
the first in binoculars was a German in WW2,
and the first consumer binoculars would be sometime in the 1950s-60s, produced in Japan for Bushnell.
(that I know of)
 
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I'm really only advocating for variable-ratio in bins with close focus, especially those supposedly no-compromises super-bins like the SV and SF where the designers have taken the trouble to give them super close focus ability. However, variable-ratio focus would be of great benefit to many other bins, and many other users (see end of last paragraph, below), so I hope others will take up the cause when they realize what it could do for them.
...

Alexis,

I agree with you about the utility of variable rate focusing in close-focusing binoculars. :t:

Ed
 
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[QUOTE=Alexis

It took about 25 years to see flat-field tech in a euro-alpha birding roof (the SV)

--AP

Alex

Have you ever looked through an FL 10x32? :smoke:

Lee
 
Have you ever looked through an FL 10x32? :smoke:

Or indeed the much maligned Victory 10x40B? That's about as sharp at the edge as the Nikon SE. Well, almost.

If you don't know it, check Kimmo report on it on the Lintuvaruste website.

Hermann
 
Alexis It took about 25 years to see flat-field tech in a euro-alpha birding roof (the SV) --AP Alex Have you ever looked through an FL 10x32? :smoke: Lee[/QUOTE said:
Yes, I have. It is the only 10x32 I've ever looked through and liked. The field is flat, but it is not without astigmatism. I've also used the 8x32 FL and 7x42 FL a fair bit, and they have flat fields but, again, with astigmatism. In this thread, "flat field tech" is being used to refer to a field corrected for both field curvature and astigmatism. In my experience, the most impressive roof examples of that are the Nikon Classic Eagle, the Nikon LX series, and the Swarovski SV.

--AP
 
Yes, I have. It is the only 10x32 I've ever looked through and liked. The field is flat, but it is not without astigmatism.

--AP

OK Alex, interesting that you liked it despite the astigmatism. Look out for a new interview with Gerry Dobler that I hope to be posting next week that will have a tiny nugget of info that might interest you in the context of this thread.

Lee
 
OK Alex, interesting that you liked it despite the astigmatism. Look out for a new interview with Gerry Dobler that I hope to be posting next week that will have a tiny nugget of info that might interest you in the context of this thread.

Lee


Lee, have you added a granny flat onto your house for Gerold to live?

Just kidding and [as always] look forward to your interview.
 
Lee, have you added a granny flat onto your house for Gerold to live?

Just kidding and [as always] look forward to your interview.

Hey James

Thats a great idea. I'll get Zeiss to draw up the plans and do the building work! Lets see, they will probably promise it later this year, add on say a year and half for 'delays' that would make it available for occupation, ooooohh, certainly within this century :-O. And we could call it The Best Granny Flat in the World, For Up To More Than One Person :-O :-O.

Cheers Lee
 
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