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Larus cachinnans or Larus michahellis (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ody
- Start date
JANJ
Well-known member
Hi Tsimoulis.
Due to heavy worn plumage and covert moult at this time of year, rather large looking eye, strong legs (nor so thin looking) makes it look like a Yellow-legged (moulting to 1st winter). Caspian usually not with such a advanced covert moult at this time (exceptions occur). The bill size and shape of it could fit a male cachinnans, as could the sloping forehead and the tertial pattern.
Caspian (October)
http://www.artportalen.se/artportalen/gallery/images/swe/birds/2006/large/21119.jpg
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=13623
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=13284
JanJ
Due to heavy worn plumage and covert moult at this time of year, rather large looking eye, strong legs (nor so thin looking) makes it look like a Yellow-legged (moulting to 1st winter). Caspian usually not with such a advanced covert moult at this time (exceptions occur). The bill size and shape of it could fit a male cachinnans, as could the sloping forehead and the tertial pattern.
Caspian (October)
http://www.artportalen.se/artportalen/gallery/images/swe/birds/2006/large/21119.jpg
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=13623
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=13284
JanJ
lou salomon
the birdonist
hi all,
it's a michahellis on structure. though caspian male bill could be almost identical and have a strong gonys angle, this one has a long bill but blunt tipped upper mandible. covert moult is advanced. big eyes, thick neck, micha-face (for me). often 1/2cy YLGs seem to have sloping foreheads (easterns more than westerns?).
it's a michahellis on structure. though caspian male bill could be almost identical and have a strong gonys angle, this one has a long bill but blunt tipped upper mandible. covert moult is advanced. big eyes, thick neck, micha-face (for me). often 1/2cy YLGs seem to have sloping foreheads (easterns more than westerns?).
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lou salomon
the birdonist
there's still a lot of confusion in names due to accepted or not splits in the argentatus-fuscus-group of large gulls. but the widely accepted names now are:
larus michahellis - yellow-legged gull
larus cachinnnas - caspian gull (some call it pontic gull)
as separated species (which i think they are
)
larus michahellis - yellow-legged gull
larus cachinnnas - caspian gull (some call it pontic gull)
as separated species (which i think they are
)
JANJ
Well-known member
lou salomon said:there's still a lot of confusion in names due to accepted or not splits in the argentatus-fuscus-group of large gulls. but the widely accepted names now are:
larus michahellis - yellow-legged gull
larus cachinnnas - caspian gull (some call it pontic gull)
as separated species (which i think they are
Me to.
JanJ
Edward woodwood
Member
HI Ody
I used to go birding at Vegoritis when i lived in Ptolemaida. I regualrly saw michahellis there and on occasion a cachinnans. Michahellis was much the commoner.
The south west and northeast corners used to be very good for spring waders and the hillsides were excellent for raptors. It's a lovely place indeed!!!
great memories
Tim
I used to go birding at Vegoritis when i lived in Ptolemaida. I regualrly saw michahellis there and on occasion a cachinnans. Michahellis was much the commoner.
The south west and northeast corners used to be very good for spring waders and the hillsides were excellent for raptors. It's a lovely place indeed!!!
great memories
Tim
ody
Well-known member
Hi, Tim!
I am glad to hear that you know the place. It's really a lovely place.
So , you said raptors.
Take a look:
http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/111920
I am glad to hear that you know the place. It's really a lovely place.
So , you said raptors.
Take a look:
http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/111920
James Lowther
Well-known member
ody said:
That's what it says in Collins but as Lou says, not a very popular idea nowadays!!
Mike Johnston
Well-known member
It is confusing! I think the official British List has Yellow-Legged Gull (Larus michahellis) as a separate species, but still regards 'Caspian Gull' as a subspecies of argentatus (Larus argentatus cachinnans) - although the official Irish list accepts both as separate species. The Greek list seems to follow Collins, i.e. Larus cachinnans is Yellow-Legged Gull, with michahellis being a subspecies (although they differ from Collins in definitely regarding Armenian Gull (Larus armenicus) as a species, whereas Collins includes it tentatively in the cachinans group). So, if you're following the Greek list then, no, cachinans and michahellis are not separate species!ody said:
foxsparrow
Italian Birder
ody said:
While Caspian (Larus cachinnans) and Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis) are two separate species, easily told in the field (see Olsen & Larsson's Gulls guide), this bird is really interesting. IMHO it shows characters of both species, particularly that bicoloured bill is usual for Caspian and very unusual for Yellow-legged Gull. Tertials too are typical of Caspian, while other characters are pointing to Yellow-legged Gull. What about an hybrid Caspian x Yellow-legged Gull ?
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JANJ
Well-known member
As mentioned above, michahellis is favoured here due to the characters mentioned. However, some michahellis and cachinnans can look quite similar in plumage, in timing- and in the amount of renewed feathers, like into 1st winter as in your gull, which not only has many second generation upperparts and coverts (quite normal for michahellis, usually less renewed coverts in chachinnans) but the heavy wear in the greater coverts and outer lesser coverts is more in line with michahellis, and being taken in Greece, probably further enhance this. The fact that variability in gulls is huge, makes it difficult at times to judge, both plumage characters and structure, the last mentioned, especially in photos, because the difference between males and females, males being larger and usually with bigger bills, also because of geographical variation, since there are some differences between eastern and western michahellis, some eastern show intermediacy with cachinnans, like paler underwing, narrower bill, paler inner primaries. Since this is true in some (!) (the ones I have seen in the east, where mostly quite similar to the ones I see in the west), others are similar all over the 'distribution line'
So, structurally, and with the big looking eye and aggressive look (cachinnans looks kinder) I think this is a michahellis.
Caspian from October, one example:
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds/CaspianGull_1K_Dueodde_20021016_JSH_01.jpg
JanJ
So, structurally, and with the big looking eye and aggressive look (cachinnans looks kinder) I think this is a michahellis.
Caspian from October, one example:
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds/CaspianGull_1K_Dueodde_20021016_JSH_01.jpg
JanJ
lou salomon
the birdonist
i fully agree with jan on this, especially what he said about eastern michahellis: some look very typical, like the ones in southern and western mediterranean (--> the ones menotti is used to ), others can cause some headache because of similarities with cachinnans. if this is 'convergence' or caused by genflow - nobody knows. ody's bird has indeed some cachi-features but i'd say ~~ 60% of 1cy/2cy michahellis in black sea/northern greece show some or all features (similar to caspian g.) jan mentioned in his last post.
), others can cause some headache because of similarities with cachinnans. if this is 'convergence' or caused by genflow - nobody knows. ody's bird has indeed some cachi-features but i'd say ~~ 60% of 1cy/2cy michahellis in black sea/northern greece show some or all features (similar to caspian g.) jan mentioned in his last post.
Dimitris
Birdwatcher in Oz
I think you have michahellis female there. That said both your birds are a bit 'mixed' up, both show some features of cachinnnas, but the overall impression in both birds is that they are michahellis.
(Of course Gulls are famous for making you wrong ...XD)
Cheers!
Dimitris
(Of course Gulls are famous for making you wrong ...XD
)Cheers!
Dimitris
JANJ
Well-known member
Classic Yellow-legged Gull, and very similar plumage wise to the first one, but with a more typical large head and a fuller neck, although not stretching as much as the other, and a wholly black bill. As correctly pointed out by Menotti, Yellow-legged usually has all blackish bill for a longer period compared to Caspian. Scapulars usually with bolder anchor marks in 1st winter compared to Caspian who shows narrower, but it´s a variable character also depending on time of year. Comparing the two gulls, one could certainly get a bit confused, as they look quite different in structure, the last one being more like a "text book" example of a Yellow-legged Gull, while the first has some Caspian characters, like long, bicoloured bill, and as mentioned by Menotti- the tertials, but also matched by many Yellow-legged. The pale surrounding to the eye is also a pro Caspian character, but then again also matched by some Yellow-legged. So, is it a hybrid, as suggested by Menotti? Or is it just that some eastern Yellow-legged shares characters with Caspian? I belive the latter, but not saying anything definitely about the gull.
JanJ
JanJ
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lou salomon
the birdonist
michahellis yes for this bird also. but female? i can't sex it, but head looks even a bit male-like.
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