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harrier id east coast (1 Viewer)

Whatever the pros and cons, and who's responsible or not — the lack of location is hampering identification by preventing others from getting more photos that might make identification much easier. The area is not infested with grouse moor gamekeepers, so the bird is not at risk. Please publicise the location!
 
Nutcracker said:
Whatever the pros and cons, and who's responsible or not — the lack of location is hampering identification by preventing others from getting more photos that might make identification much easier. The area is not infested with grouse moor gamekeepers, so the bird is not at risk. Please publicise the location!
Click to expand...

It's history now in any case. From what I can gather from the posts on that site, it's gone. A lost migrant juv monty turned north instead of south. As Simon says they are well into migration at the moment and the peak has passed. In any event, if there'd been a family of montys breeding between Ashington and Cresswell since the spring I'd gamble that they might just have been noticed, by about a hundred people. It's not as if the place is under-watched. The chances of this bird being locally bred are less than the chances of dodos nesting on Coquet Island next year, unless the fabled Northumberland suppression is even worse than imagined.
 
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Nutcracker said:
Whatever the pros and cons, and who's responsible or not — the lack of location is hampering identification by preventing others from getting more photos that might make identification much easier. The area is not infested with grouse moor gamekeepers, so the bird is not at risk. Please publicise the location!
Click to expand...

The location was disclosed to two very skilled photographers with equipment capable of taking images at long distance, as we were advised not to publicly disclose the location we thought this was the only way to try to obtain a positive identification, unfortunately the bird had moved on and has not been seen in the locality since the initial sighting, we acted on the advice of a knowledgeable person and apologise if we have offended anyone by not disclosing its whereabouts, it is the fact that some people are not willing to accept our decision that is annoying, and to suggest that there is a divide between photographers and birders is nonsense, we take photographs of wildlife because we are passionate about wildlife and birds in particular, there are two sides to every story, but some people choose to listen to only one.
 
Thanks for that Tom,
the number of primaries always confuses me, we have pics that 'should' be Monty's based on this feature but others have insisted that they're not and I'm never certain if feathers are broken or re-growing.



Thanks, Andy.
 
If the original photographers could even post any other pics they got it may help matters, especially any flight or open wing/flapping shots.

My two cents.

I'm actually quite impressed with the facial pattern on this. The white bags under the eyes are perhaps larger than classic but not out of range I suspect, and the mask reaching under the gape looks good.

Adding a shot posted on twitter, which I assume is again from same photographer. Hope that's ok. Not the best of resolution, but at least another angle.

IMO there is somewhat of a collar there, and I think the over the shoulder angle of the previous pics don't highlight it well. It's not the strongest of boas, or the darkest of crowns which would be wanted for a classic pallid.

How would people feel about this bird for example?


http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=vvs1410804836&lang=eng

Things such as primary length, leg length etc are indeed more subjective.
Per Corso, female montys often show primary projections well short of the tail tip.
But I would maybe expect a slightly higher level of throat/upper breast streaking than can be seen here in that case (granted we don't get the angle or resolution that would be optimal for that assessment).

Further to (very) subjective features, in my own (admittedly limited) experience, I have often found juv Pallids have a tendency to be brighter and better marked on the upper parts, with a larger upper wing panel than montys. Nowhere near a concrete feature, just something I've often felt regards them.

So if I was faced with this bird on the deck, with that face pattern, a decent collar, a boa (albeit not the most solid), the shorter primaries and the strong upper parts patterning, I would be leaning towards Pallid.

Again, would be great if the photographer could post more of what they have.

Owen
 

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Again I think there is a collar there, and I don't actually think the contrast with the nape is too bad and It seems to go right around the head and throat to me. On the clearer shots there's no suggestion of any streaking within the collar either.

It's not the best of boas, but weak boas are by no means unusual, and in some shots it seems reasonably distinct down to the neck side.

On the combination of everything I would still lean to pallid.

Whether it's acceptable as such to the local committee? Without an underwing shot I doubt it. But I personally would not put it down as definitely Montagu's. Pyg/mac harrier for the report.

Owen
 
To me this is fairly clear-cut Pallid harrier.

The pale crown is of little relevance since both Pallid and Monty's may show this feature in juvenile plumage. On the other the combination of rather pale head (pale crown and relatively pale nape) and the dark cheek-patch largely reaching the malar area is not at all common in Montagu's, but still fairly typical for Pallid.

The wingtip to tail ration has already been mentionned and while this may not be a bullet-proof feature, the wingtip falling well short of the tailtip strongly favours Pallid has other have mentionned. In term of general appearance, this translates into a rather stocky bird lacking the attenuated rear end of Monty's.

But I will mainly also insist of the face pattern. Once you have your eyes tuned into it, the aggressive face pattern of a juv Pallid is readily told from the "goofy" face of a juv Monty's and will be in most cases instantly recognizable. I believe it to be the case here.
To give a bit more details:
- note how the supercilium appear narrow, rather long (starting well in front of the eye) with and up-turned rear end. This would be extremely unusual for a Monty's which normaly shows a shortish, broader supercilium that wraps around the rear-end of the eye.
- note also the size discrepancy between the supercilium and the white Crescent below the eye. In the overwhelming majority of juv Monty's, the supercilium and the crescent are approximatively of the same size while this descrepancy is very typical for juv Pallid.

And while it might be a bit far-fetched, there is a bit of primary pattern visible. Best seen on that pic I think: http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/538007/cat/recent/limit/recent
The outer primaries seem to show a rather short and well defined black-tip implying that the fingers are mostly pale...
 
Tib78 said:
To me this is fairly clear-cut Pallid harrier.

The pale crown is of little relevance since both Pallid and Monty's may show this feature in juvenile plumage. On the other the combination of rather pale head (pale crown and relatively pale nape) and the dark cheek-patch largely reaching the malar area is not at all common in Montagu's, but still fairly typical for Pallid.

The wingtip to tail ration has already been mentionned and while this may not be a bullet-proof feature, the wingtip falling well short of the tailtip strongly favours Pallid has other have mentionned. In term of general appearance, this translates into a rather stocky bird lacking the attenuated rear end of Monty's.

But I will mainly also insist of the face pattern. Once you have your eyes tuned into it, the aggressive face pattern of a juv Pallid is readily told from the "goofy" face of a juv Monty's and will be in most cases instantly recognizable. I believe it to be the case here.
To give a bit more details:
- note how the supercilium appear narrow, rather long (starting well in front of the eye) with and up-turned rear end. This would be extremely unusual for a Monty's which normaly shows a shortish, broader supercilium that wraps around the rear-end of the eye.
- note also the size discrepancy between the supercilium and the white Crescent below the eye. In the overwhelming majority of juv Monty's, the supercilium and the crescent are approximatively of the same size while this descrepancy is very typical for juv Pallid.

And while it might be a bit far-fetched, there is a bit of primary pattern visible. Best seen on that pic I think: http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/538007/cat/recent/limit/recent
The outer primaries seem to show a rather short and well defined black-tip implying that the fingers are mostly pale...
Click to expand...

I would agree with all of that.
I had been looking at the underside of the opposing wing, but would be loathe to put it down as a concrete feature (some montys show less dark fingers).

I keep coming back to the first shot off twitter. To me that screams Pallid like a banshee with a megaphone.

I understand the caution in approaching an on the deck harrier like this, but again, if i had that in front of me here I would say Pallid.

I don't suppose the photographer has any side on shots where the bird isn't twisting it's head upwards? (Stupid crow) ;)

Owen
 

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Tib78 said:
The outer primaries seem to show a rather short and well defined black-tip implying that the fingers are mostly pale...
Click to expand...

I agree that the primaries do show a dark tip but wouldn't that lead to a dark surround (trailing edge) to the primaries (newest picture). I'm in no way getting involved with what it is - this is out of my league - just asking...
 
rosbifs said:
I agree that the primaries do show a dark tip but wouldn't that lead to a dark surround (trailing edge) to the primaries (newest picture). I'm in no way getting involved with what it is - this is out of my league - just asking...
Click to expand...

Rosbifs,

Only a problem if dark tips to inner primaries.

Regards

Owen
 
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