Newbie question: 65mm Diascope vs cheaper 80mm... (1 Viewer)

Hello everyone,

I have been into birds for a long time, but have mostly enjoyed photography with telephoto lenses. I have been trying to get my longtime girlfriend (soon to be fiance) into birds for a long time, but she never enjoyed taking pictures of them. I realized recently that she enjoys watching them thru binos and when we recently met some people who were using a spotting scope - her eyes lit up...I also enjoyed the scope and could see its usefulness.

Therefore, I have set about to buy some good binos (mostly done at this point, tried a bunch and finally settled on a pair of zeiss 7x42 fl for me and a minox 8-14x40 vario for her...but that might change soon) and I am now looking for a decent scope to play around with. I am a pretty big guy (6'2" 185lbs), a collegiate rower and lift weights 5 days a week...so size/weight is just not an issue for me (had no problem handholding a canon 1d2 + 500 f/4.5L while I owned them) - so I was looking for an 80mm+ scope...which I could just mount on my gitzo tripod.

My original budget was somewhere around $500-600, but I recently found a used Zeiss 65mm T* FL for sale at $625, but on eyepiece. I'm no fan of zooms, so I would buy a fixed eyepiece (probably the 30x) - costs around $300, so total costs of probably $950. I can swing this (barely), so $1000 is really the absolute top end of my budget.

I got to thinking about the 65mm size and my original thought of looking for an 80mm - so I am wondering if it is worth it to buy the 65mm as compared to buying an 80mm w/ eyepiece of comparable/lesser price...say a 20-60x Pentax 80ED, older Kowa 82mm + 27x eyepiece, Nikon prostaff, Meopta 75mm + 30x, Vortex ED, etc. Basically - I am wondering how much light I will be sacrificing with this 65mm vs a cheaper 80mm? If I got the 80mm, I would be able to get 30x a good bit brighter or 40x at about the same brightness...is that worth the drop in quality from the Zeiss?

Sorry for all the questions - but I am new here and like to spend my money without remorse...or at least with minimal remorse.

Thanks to all of you for the wealth of information here on BF!
-Kyle

Hi Kyle,

Welcome to the forum. A few comments:

-- The used Zeiss sounds like a great deal. But is it the angled version? I am about your size, and I think for tall people especially, an angled scope is definitely preferable. For one thing, if you have a straight scope you have to set up your tripod very high, which creates stability and vibration issues, among other things. It should also be easier to share views through an angled scope with your girlfriend.

-- As with binoculars, it is best to try before you buy. The Zeiss does have somewhat of a yellowish tinge to the view, and some people do not like this. (I know I found it a bit odd).

-- I think there is less difference between looking through a 65 mm scope and an 80 mm scope than most people would expect. (Here is one reviewer's take on the difference: http://www.betterviewdesired.com/Big-Scopes-Fight-Back.php (scroll down to the section at the bottom of the page)). But again I think the best approach here is to try in person.

-- the vortex scopes do not offer interchangeable eyepieces, and come with a zoom. Since you say you do not like zooms, I would think that would eliminate them for you.

Hope this helps,
Jim

Thank you for your detailed reply.

The scope is the angled version (I agree, an angled scope is what I need) - so no problem there.

I can't easily get to somewhere that has a large selection of scopes out to look at - no where in my area - so I'll kind've have to do this blind. Not too big of a deal for me, as I am fairly easy to please.

I realized what you said about the Vortex scope - no extra eyepieces kills that deal for me, but I did find a Pentax 80ED with zoom (I could buy a fixed later if I want) for $850. I'm wondering how this would compare with the Zeiss 65mm in sharpness, useability and just overall usefullness in viewing birds? With the plethora of eyepieces available to fit directly onto the Pentax (without an expensive adapter) I could get a higher powered eyepiece if I so choose sometime in the future...does this outweight the advantage of the zeiss being a zeiss scope? Would it be worthwhile to buy them both and compare them...then just sell the one that I don't need/want?

Thanks again,
Kyle

dwolfbearer said:

... I did find a Pentax 80ED with zoom (I could buy a fixed later if I want) for $850. I'm wondering how this would compare with the Zeiss 65mm in sharpness, useability and just overall usefullness in viewing birds? With the plethora of eyepieces available to fit directly onto the Pentax (without an expensive adapter) I could get a higher powered eyepiece if I so choose sometime in the future...does this outweight the advantage of the zeiss being a zeiss scope? Would it be worthwhile to buy them both and compare them...then just sell the one that I don't need/want?

Click to expand...

The Pentax scope will be brighter than the Zeiss, but given the light levels and magnifications typical of most birding, the 65 is plenty bright. The 65 is also much more compact/shorter, whereas the Pentax is a beast of a scope compared to other 80 mm birding scopes. I don't think that the image quality of the Zeiss could be expected to be inherently better. In fact, both Zeiss and Pentax have a reputation for putting more lemons on the market than other top end manufacturers, and the issue of lemon scopes is always of concern regardless of brand. So I'd say that if both are good units, the Pentax will be optically better and the Zeiss will be handier for most birding. If one is a lemon, its flaws will exceed the differences inherent in these scopes' designs.

--AP

I generally agree with what Alexis said. The big Pentax is probably THE traditional spotting scope that will put to the test your claim that weight is not an issue for you. I am not sure that just having above-average strength and being physically fit will eliminate all the strains of carrying a heavy scope, however.

If possible, I think getting both the Zeiss and Pentax to try would be advantageous. Especially because one might turn out to be a bad sample. (Hopefully both will not!).

Best,
Jim

Sounds good - I think I'll probably buy both and try them both out.

With regard to weight - I've carried my 1d2 + 120-300 2.8 (9lbs total) + gitzo tripod (5 lbs w/ the RRS head) + water bottle (32oz = 2 pounds) + other assorted lenses (~4lbs) on hikes of 4-5 hours with no problem, so I shouldn't think that adding on the weight of scope will be all that big of a deal, even if it does add 4-5lbs extra (50oz + eyepiece).

Regardless - I'm more interested in the Zeiss because I like the brand and because its a great deal than the Pentax...but then I look at the mass amount of eyepieces available for the pentax and it seems pretty interesting...so I'm not 100% which I want.

Thanks for your help guys,
Kyle

I haul a lot of gear around w/me sometimes too. What I think is more significant is the size of the Pentax. It requires a larger tripod, is awkward on a window mount, doesn't pack easily...

Another detail--note that Zeiss scopes will take astro eyepieces w/an adapter.

--AP

Hi Kyle,

As a Zeiss 65 owner my think the scope is just great (with zoom). I'd point out:

- Very sharp optics
- quite lightweight (especially compared to some 80+ scopes)
- the Field of View is large, with the zoom being 15-45x = easy to find the bird, then just zoom in for fab views. With the zoom you shouldn't need to buy an assortment of lenses either.
- Its very compact, fits nicely in a rucksack. I've carried mine this way several times when going a distance, and works well coupled with a lightweight Carbon-fibre tripod.
- IMO the colour seems 'natural'. The 'yellow' cast has been noted when comparing scopes side by side (i.e magazine tests), where some other brands appear blue (take your pick..). In reality you don't see this with your own scope.

Hope this helps.

Bought the Zeiss 65mm on ebay from a known seller - it was NIB with the zoom & got it for $1000 including shipping...seems like it was a good price!

I think I'll buy the 30x wide angle and see if I like the zoom or the fixed better...

Thanks to everyone here for your help - I'll let you all know how this goes!
Kyle

dwolfbearer said:

Bought the Zeiss 65mm on ebay from a known seller - it was NIB with the zoom & got it for $1000 including shipping...seems like it was a good price!

I think I'll buy the 30x wide angle and see if I like the zoom or the fixed better...

Thanks to everyone here for your help - I'll let you all know how this goes!
Kyle

Click to expand...

Hi Kyle,

The 30x WA is a waste of money if you have the zoom.
The 23x WA is much better, IMO.

Regards, Ronald

Hey Ronald,

Thank you for pointing this out - I concur that the zoom + the 30x WA will not be very useful. I'm thinking about getting the 30x WA and comparing it to the zoom and deciding which one i like better - as I am not a big zoom fan.

I also bought the asto-adapter and I'm going to try out some astro eyepieces...I bought a reasonably cheap 5mm to see how it works for terrestrial viewing, as well as reasonably high powered astronomy viewing. I'll probably end up buying a decent 7mm (54x) eyepiece to use for high-power viewing and then something like a 14mm (27x) for general viewing. Might get some of the pentax XW eyepieces...we'll see how I like the 5mm.

Thanks,
Kyle

Does this mean that you are settling on the Zeiss or are you planning on picking up the Pentax as well to compare the two?

After just recently having purchased the 80 mm (and already owning the 65 mm Pentax) I can agree with the above comments that portability is definitely an issue (I am 6'4" 240 and still in fairly good shape for my age ). The 65 mm is so much more practical (especially in a comparison between the two Pentax models). Since I have just purchase the larger model and have had limited time to compare them optically I will limit further comments in this regard.

Having said that and seeing that you quoted $850 for the Pentax 80 mm (plus zoom eyepiece combo?) above then I must assume you were looking at one of the demo/display models from cameralandny (only place I have seen the entire kit at that price point). Doug does have a very good return policy on optics so I would not let that deter you from the comparision.

...and for what it is worth I love that 7x42 FL as well.

I settled on the 65mm scope.
The 80mm I was looking at was at clearanceoptics.com (bearbasin's clearance side) - it was $829.

I was thinking about trying both of them, but everyone has said they are happy with the 65...so I think I'll be good with it. Also - this way I can get a lightweight tripod and my girlfriend can carry the scope while I carry my camera + heavy tripod. The other issue is that I am used to trading/buying/selling camera equipment and it is usually easy to move stuff around at good prices, but the market seems to be comparatively much smaller on used binoculars/optics...so I think I will probably just stick with the 65mm and not worry about having to buy another scope and then sell one of them.

I'm really excited about the 7x42 FL! It will be here tomorrow and I'll be out on Saturday birding with it!

Thanks,
Kyle

Still waiting on the scope to come, but I got my two eyepieces (astro eyepieces)and my 7x42.

The 7x42 is AMAZING and so small/light, I'm incredibly happy it and the view is breathtaking! I LOVE THESE! Thinking about buying some 10x32's now too...these things are incredible!

The eyepieces I bought are an Orion Stratus 5mm (68 degree FOV) and a Meade 5000 5-element 5.5mm Plossl (60 degree FOV). The Orion was $100 and the meade was $90. Don't have a scope to put them in right now (of course the only thing I really need is the last thing to get here), but I can comment that the Orion is HUGE (maybe 4.5" long and 2.25" in diameter) and the meade is TINY (1.75" long and max 1.5" diameter). Already just putting the EP up to my eye - I can see that the FOV of the Orion is going to make me want to keep it...but the screwup eyepiece of the meade and its tiny size (and weight!) are going to make me want the meade!

I can't wait for my diascope!

Thanks again to everyone here for pointing me toward the zeiss.
-Kyle

PS - have to give credit to skiesunlimited - I ordered the eyepieces late Wednesday (well maybe 2am thursday morning) and they just arrived today! Pretty awesome IMO.

Got my diascope today and its pretty awesome! Didn't get it till after dark, but tried it around the apartment and its nice. It is MUCH smaller than I thought it would be and really sharp/clear.

The meade 5.5mm 60 degree that I bought works really well and is really clear (much clearer than the zoom at 45x I think - a good deal more detail. I'll know more when I try it out in the field and play with it, but I think this EP is going to work quite well for bright-light use.

In case anyone is interested, I'm using the scope on my Gitzo 2941L Basalt tripod w/ RRS BH-40LR - works really well - but I might have to buy something smaller/lighter when I get a chance....err money, I'm thinking a gitzo 0540 and a RRS BH-25LR...weigh in at just under 2lbs and support 8.8lbs (more than any scope I plan on buying)...but would cost like $600, so its a bit of an expensive accessory...

Thanks for everyone who helped me out!
-kyle

dwolf, if you are still out there, or anyone else that may have a line on this:

where in the USA can i purchase the 1 1/4- ince astro adaptor for the zeiss diascopes? just pulled the trigger on the insane deal on the straight version at astronomics, and would like to be able to affix some of my other oculars.

the scope came sans EP, but i think the baader zoom i have now will fit by removing some of the tailpieces,

any info would be greatly appreciated!

regards,
UTC

UTC,

The Baader zoom will fit the Diascopes without an adapter and Baader also makes a 1.25" adapter for the Diascopes. The Baader adapter looks like it adds considerable length, so I suspect many 1.25" eyepieces will not reach focus with it.

Henry

thanks Henry! that is indeed good news... i ran across the zeiss adaptor:

http://www.spottingscopes.com/spott...s/diascopetelescopeeyepieceadapter125inch.cfm

but it's pricey for such a gizmo in my estimation, at $150. i was informed only alpine astro might have the baader hyperion one in stock, hopefully at a cheaper price, but they are closed thru the 4th and their list of adaptors doesnt match the part number from the baader catalog, but i think i might see the thing in their accessories listing but i am not sure... baader has a boatload of different types of adaptors!

thanks again for the response! if you can identify the right implement on the alpine astro site, if you have time to check it out, i would greatly appreciate it,

kind regards,
utc

utc

UTC,

Are you looking for the adapter to use the Zeiss eyepieces on astronomical telescopes or are you looking for the adapter to use astronomical eyepieces on the Diascope? If it is the latter then the price is $65 and you can get it at Adorama. $150 is for the former.

thanks frank! i was apparently looking at this from the wrong perspective; i am trying to adapt my astro eyepieces to the diascope.

i will check adorama,

regards,
utc