Both looked Large Hawk to me but I may be wrong. You need to be on site to see them and gauge their size to confirm.
Large Hawk is way bigger than an Indian while a Hodgson's is smaller than an Indian.
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Malaysian or Hodgson's Hawk Cuckoo? Singapore (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Avian Seeker
- Start date
Both looked Large Hawk to me but I may be wrong. You need to be on site to see them and gauge their size to confirm.
Large Hawk is way bigger than an Indian while a Hodgson's is smaller than an Indian.
viator
Well-known member
These two I'm actually thinking maybe Malaysian .... if it was a Hodgson's wouldn't the white patches on the tertial feathers be larger on the second image?
Thanks. I'm pretty sure the left-hand bird in the first image and the bird in the second image are the same - in fact, it could be the same image.
Con Foley's (page linked in post 2) doesn't seem to think this feature is diagnostic:
"Various authors discuss different aspects of plumage in an attempt to describe and separate the species. The quite obvious pale tertial on the adult Hodgson’s can lead to a discussion about to what extent the juvenile of either species has a pale tertial. But in my personal experience I have found the paleness of the juvenile tertial to be highly variable, so I now discount the presence or absence of a pale tertial as a key ID feature."
It is best to separate juvenile Malaysian Hawk and Juvenile Hodgson's Hawk Cuckoo from their tailband o
Bryon Wright
Well-known member
Hi all,
meant H. varius as a definite possibility for some of the photographs not the smaller, Indian Cuckoo micropterus. If the bigger birds have a tail as a big as a hawk then agree sparverioides is the only solution to these. A lot of the northern migratory sparverioides do not have dark, ferruginous upper breasts like in these birds.
With regard to Andy's request about #18. Would suggest look to the oriental, saturatus groupings for this bird not the micropterus, Indian Cuckoo. If it was seen at a higher elevation then Sunda is a possibility. I have a detailed description description of my own of this species. Presumably the immature bird is a Sunda Cuckoo, not Indian or Oriental, if from a really high elevation.
The problem with identifying the Indian Cuckoo, micropterus, is that from the front it looks like a conventional grey cuckoo, whereas both sexes from behind look brown grey, like a cuckoo hawk.
Regret mentioning Hodgson's because lighter tertials are a feature of several species, but Hodgson's it is a likely candidate for Singapore being tolerant of mixed coastal scrub and forest. Those pink buff patches on the upper tertials are a good field mark on an otherwise impenetrable overall brown, vermiculated immature.
meant H. varius as a definite possibility for some of the photographs not the smaller, Indian Cuckoo micropterus. If the bigger birds have a tail as a big as a hawk then agree sparverioides is the only solution to these. A lot of the northern migratory sparverioides do not have dark, ferruginous upper breasts like in these birds.
With regard to Andy's request about #18. Would suggest look to the oriental, saturatus groupings for this bird not the micropterus, Indian Cuckoo. If it was seen at a higher elevation then Sunda is a possibility. I have a detailed description description of my own of this species. Presumably the immature bird is a Sunda Cuckoo, not Indian or Oriental, if from a really high elevation.
The problem with identifying the Indian Cuckoo, micropterus, is that from the front it looks like a conventional grey cuckoo, whereas both sexes from behind look brown grey, like a cuckoo hawk.
Regret mentioning Hodgson's because lighter tertials are a feature of several species, but Hodgson's it is a likely candidate for Singapore being tolerant of mixed coastal scrub and forest. Those pink buff patches on the upper tertials are a good field mark on an otherwise impenetrable overall brown, vermiculated immature.
Grahame Walbridge
Well-known member
What are you babbling on about now Bryon? Don't dig a deeper hole for yourself!
Common Hawk-cuckoo H.varius is largely resident to NE Pakistan and the Indian Subcontinent as far as W Myanmar. In SE Asia it is exclusive to SW Myanmar, though there is a sole historical record from peninsular Thailand which needs verification so, hardly a definite possibility IMHO.
Regarding Andy's post 18 both seem unquestionably Indian. The juvenile, with its broad white-tipped coverts and scapulars etc is a plumage unique in the cuculus genus so definitely not a Sunda.
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_Image_ID=82706&Bird_ID=446&Bird_Family_ID=&Location=
Grahame
johnallcock
Well-known member
Yes, very distinctive. And on the adult the tail pattern with broad black subterminal band should confirm Indian rather than the Oriental group.
Bryon Wright
Well-known member
John, your link shows a large hawk cuckoo photographed in Hong Kong, but the captions describe it as bocki. Do you know if it was originally designated bocki or is just a synonym based on precedence? Indian Cuckoo appears on checklists from Russia to Australia. I was referring to the resident species in the Sunda Region.
Grahame Walbridge
Well-known member
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Grahame, I think Bryon is referring to this link originally posted by John, where there is a list of "synonyms" for Large Hawk Cuckoo, bocki being among them. Clearly OBI has not yet separated the two species. As far as I can see, Howard & Moore is the only authority which has so far not recognised the split, so I'm not sure why this is the case. It seems bocki was originally a ssp. of sparverioides.
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=456&Bird_Image_ID=58631&Bird_Family_ID=
The images I posted were all taken recently in Singapore during a large influx of migrant Cuckoos, which is why I directed my question at two Singapore-based forum members.
I admit I have been on a learning curve with these birds, especially the Hawk Cuckoos, but have done a lot of reading around the subject and am now feeling more confident.
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=456&Bird_Image_ID=58631&Bird_Family_ID=
The images I posted were all taken recently in Singapore during a large influx of migrant Cuckoos, which is why I directed my question at two Singapore-based forum members.
I admit I have been on a learning curve with these birds, especially the Hawk Cuckoos, but have done a lot of reading around the subject and am now feeling more confident.
johnallcock
Well-known member
The same list of synonyms is included for every photo of Large Hawk-cuckoo on OBI. As Andy says, this is because they still treat bocki as a subspecies of sparverioides. The same practice is used for every species where an English name is used only for a certain taxon.
This bird, photographed in Hong Kong, is certainly a sparverioides, which is a common migrant to the territory (although juveniles are rarely seen), whereas bocki is very unlikely to occur in HK. I never suggested that this photo, or the one in the original post, was a bocki. (Actually, I didn't know much about the difference between the two taxa, and that is one of several things I have learned on this interesting thread).
Grahame and I have been corresponding about these individuals and we've agreed that the right-hand of these two birds (post 17) is indeed Large Hawk Cuckoo, despite its rather compact appearance. It lacks a yellow base to the bill and has a malar stripe and the subterminal tail band is too narrow for Malaysian.
Re the left-hand bird, you'd really need a rear view to confirm, but I think Hodgson's is a better bet than either LHC or Malaysian. The yellow base to the bill should rule out LHC straight away. The streaks on the underparts are long and rather heavy, there's a lot of rufous coloration on the side of the nape and breast and the tip of the bill is yellow. The subterminal band on the tail (from underneath) looks narrow.
I'm attaching an image of a Hodgson's shot in the same area on 10 Jan, which may even be the same individual.
Attachments
Agreed that the Jan 10 bird is a Hodgson's. BTW, if you drop by Singapore again, let me know and I could show you around our remaining birding sites
Bryon Wright
Well-known member
Hi all,
Name changes apart, I think this photographer really means, .........Indian Cuckoo (Australian vagrant) photo gallery by Wildlife Images at phase.com. I think they have all the three skins but not sure about Sunda.
Name changes apart, I think this photographer really means, .........Indian Cuckoo (Australian vagrant) photo gallery by Wildlife Images at phase.com. I think they have all the three skins but not sure about Sunda.
Grahame Walbridge
Well-known member
Bryon, I cannot get your link to work. My earlier reference to no Australian records was to the mainland. Sorry, I should have made that absolutely clear. Indian Cuckoo is on the Australian List by virtue of a sole AOT record of a female on Cocos (Keeling) Is in Feb 2011-I'd hardly call that Australia.
There no records of Himalayan or Sunda.
Grahame
Grahame Walbridge
Well-known member
The same situation in Thailand and mainland Malaysia SeeToh, though it may have been recorded in Vietnam (?). Similarly, there are no records of Northern Hawk-cuckoo from Thailand, mainland Malaysia or Singapore but it does pass through Vietnam.
Begs the question-do both spp routinely take a more easterly route to their winter quarters?
Grahame
How about these two identified as saturatus:
Kennerley P 1998: Oriental Cuckoos at Tuas, Singapore on 21st October and 2nd December 1995. Oriental Bird Club Bulletin 27 55-57.
In Tring collection there is an optatus with wing length 209 labelled Singapore, number NHM 81.5.1.3291, but for some reason there is no date in my notes.
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Grahame Walbridge
Well-known member
You are right to point that out jalid and saturatus is on the latest version of the Singapore Checklist (2017).
Grahame
