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Kenko Pro v Canon converter test Results (1 Viewer)

Just tried the taped Kenko with my 70-200 f4 L - AF is Definitely better with the Kenko .With the taped Canon converter the lens hunted like mad but with the Kenko it locked on very quickly for most of the time with very little hunting. Have no idea why this should be so |:S| |:S| but it could explain why some people have report better AF with the Kenko and the 100-400 with regards to the hunting. It seems like zooms are not suited to the Canon tc.
As reported earlier, with the 400mm f5.6 prime both converters are the same as far as AF and hunting goes.
 
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Just tried the taped Kenko with my 70-200 f4 L - AF is Definitely better with the Kenko with the taped Canon converter the lens hunted like mad but with the Kenko it locked on very quickly for most of the time with very little hunting. Have no idea why this should be so |:S| |:S| but it could explain why some people have report better AF with the Kenko and the 100-400 with regards to the hunting. It seems like zooms are not suited to the Canon tc.
As reported earlier, with the 400mm f5.6 prime both converters are the same as far as AF and hunting goes.

Roy, A side question. The trial of the Canon 1.4x TC I did outside Jessops with & without the TC showed 560mm and 400mm respectively in shot settings. Now having purchased a Canon 1.4x TC and with the TC taped I lose this info in that all shots settings show 400mm....is this to be expected?

Jamie
 
Roy, A side question. The trial of the Canon 1.4x TC I did outside Jessops with & without the TC showed 560mm and 400mm respectively in shot settings. Now having purchased a Canon 1.4x TC and with the TC taped I lose this info in that all shots settings show 400mm....is this to be expected?

Jamie
As Keith say's Jamie that is normal. This is what taping is all about, you are fooling the camera into not knowing there is a tc present therefore it can only report the aperture of the bare lens - if it reported 560mm and f8 you could not AF.
 
Just tried the taped Kenko with my 70-200 f4 L - AF is Definitely better with the Kenko .With the taped Canon converter the lens hunted like mad but with the Kenko it locked on very quickly for most of the time with very little hunting. Have no idea why this should be so |:S| |:S| but it could explain why some people have report better AF with the Kenko and the 100-400 with regards to the hunting. It seems like zooms are not suited to the Canon tc.

I don't think it is to do with the zoom but 'speed' (max aperture) of the lens. I would bet that a 300/4 and Canon tc with taped pins would hunt just as much as a 70-200/4.
 
I agree Mark, there's a slight contrast/brightness difference, but nothing significant.

Sharpness is too close to call, really.

Surely sharpness is much to do with contrast at this pixel-peeking level? So the Canon TC is 'sharper'... ;)

From what I've read, the Canon is better at the edges than the Kenko, though many tests give the nod to the Kenko at the centre - which suits me for bird photos.

Exactly where I was going - there is a reason the Canon is more expensive and it isn't just badge and weather-sealing.
 
I don't think it is to do with the zoom but 'speed' (max aperture) of the lens. I would bet that a 300/4 and Canon tc with taped pins would hunt just as much as a 70-200/4.
You could well be right Mark but how come it does not hunt with the Kenko?
 
Hi everyone, I have just been reading this post with great interest, I am relatively new to Digital SLR's after coming from a point and shoot camera, I have the Canon 400D and for wildlife shots I have been using the Canon 70/300 IS lens sometimes attaching the Kenco Pro 1.4, and have found it auto focuses quite well in good light, so I am interest to know whats meant by taping the pins, which ones and what with, also what would the difference be.

Hope this is not a silly question.

John.
 
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You could well be right Mark but how come it does not hunt with the Kenko?

OK, this is going to get a little long and complicated but please stick with me till the end! I will say straight away though that I am not 100% sure why the Kenko does not cause as much hunting, nor have I fully considered all the details of tcs and AF system interaction before now but I will try to explain my thoughts.

Lets start with a fundamental and often misunderstood concept: hunting is caused by the camera's AF system not the lens itself - the camera can't find the correct focus point so tells the lens to 'scan' so it can try and find it - notice how the lens AF motors work more slowly when you have little light or 'low contrast' situations? The AF sensor needs more time to find focus.

(D)SLR AF basically works using a phase detection system. Keeping it simple, a pair of sensors measure the light received from each side of the lens. The system then 'measures' the light and dark areas and compares the readings from both sensors – i.e. each side of the lens. If they are the same ('in phase'), correct focus has been achieved (it works in fundamentally the same way as a split focus screen on a manual focusing SLR). You can imagine that each of the focus points you see in the view-finder is a pair of those sensors, so when the light is 'in phase' for that focus point, the camera has achieved focus.

The AF system will work better the greater the distance between the sides of the lens (just trust me on that - this is getting too complicated to explain without pictures). So the widest aperture of a lens determines how far apart the sides of the lens are (that is a huge over-simplification but you get the idea). Most AF systems require an aperture of f5.6 or bigger because any less and the AF sensors won't get enough 'separation' to allow a good comparison. This means that, as well as greater amounts of light (more light means easier determination of light/dark areas), lenses with wider maximum apertures have a greater distance between the lens sides, so faster/better AF operation.

OK, assuming that made any sense at all, let’s look at using teleconvertors (tc). I am going to assume we are using a 1.4x tc, which reduces the aperture by one stop. Take one f5.6 lens, add a tc and strap it to a 30D…the AF system is disabled because the lens/tc combination is reporting a maximum aperture of f8 to the camera. The AF system is not ‘designed’ to work with that small a distance between the lens sides and the light may miss the sensors all together!

When you ‘tape the pins’ on a tc, the lens/tc reports that the combo is f5.6 and the camera leaves the AF system switched on. As luck would have it, the AF sensors on the 30D seem to be able to handle an f8 lens (makes you wonder if the next generation of the 30D will support AF at f8 as a ‘new’ feature…). From memory, the 350D didn’t handle the f8 combo as well – I can only assume that the AF sensors are even less designed for that small a gap between the lens sides.

Finally I can try to answer Roy’s question. For lenses faster than f5.6 the AF sensors are ‘adjusted’ to handle the extra light and greater distance between lens sides. A slight side note - one of the ‘breakthroughs’ on the EOS 3 was that the AF sensors could work even faster for f2.8 lenses – which has now been carried on in the 1 series bodies and even the 30D (I think).

Why does this matter with taped pins? When using an f4 lens (like the 70-200/4) Canon’s AF system will ‘adjust’ the sensors for the light and width from the f4 lens. By adding the tc you are making the lens/tc combo f5.6 but by taping the pins on the tc, the AF system is still expecting an f4 lens…so the sensors are going to have a tough time with less light and less distance between the lens sides - it is going to cause the sensors to hunt.

Now, why does the lens hunt less with the Kenko and taped pins? I don’t honestly know. I can only assume that the Canon tcs send extra data or manipulate the data from the lens in some way whereas the Kenko one doesn’t (Kenko will make the insides of their tcs the same irrelevant of the camera manufacturer the mount is for to keep costs down). Does this mean that the Canon AF system is designed to work fastest with Canon branded tcs and lenses? Probably – it gives them a competitive advantage! Following that thought through, having the Kenko tc on the camera may mean that the AF system is operating in a generic ‘safe’ mode that allows AF at any aperture of f5.6 or wider…so taping the pins has little effect on the faster lenses.

Whew…I went on longer than I intended and congratulations to anyone who read through to the end and I hope it made some sense to someone.

BTW, before any ‘well actually’ responses, I know that ‘distance between the sides of the lens’ is not a strictly accurate description, but it is a simple way to think/write about it without diagrams… ;)
 
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OK, this is going to get a little long and complicated but please stick with me till the end! I will say straight away though that I am not 100% sure why the Kenko does not cause as much hunting, nor have I fully considered all the details of tcs and AF system interaction before now but I will try to explain my thoughts.

Lets start with a fundamental and often misunderstood concept: hunting is caused by the camera's AF system not the lens itself - the camera can't find the correct focus point so tells the lens to 'scan' so it can try and find it - notice how the lens AF motors work more slowly when you have little light or 'low contrast' situations? The AF sensor needs more time to find focus.

(D)SLR AF basically works using a phase detection system. Keeping it simple, a pair of sensors measure the light received from each side of the lens. The system then 'measures' the light and dark areas and compares the readings from both sensors – i.e. each side of the lens. If they are the same ('in phase'), correct focus has been achieved (it works in fundamentally the same way as a split focus screen on a manual focusing SLR). You can imagine that each of the focus points you see in the view-finder is a pair of those sensors, so when the light is 'in phase' for that focus point, the camera has achieved focus.

The AF system will work better the greater the distance between the sides of the lens (just trust me on that - this is getting too complicated to explain without pictures). So the widest aperture of a lens determines how far apart the sides of the lens are (that is a huge over-simplification but you get the idea). Most AF systems require an aperture of f5.6 or bigger because any less and the AF sensors won't get enough 'separation' to allow a good comparison. This means that, as well as greater amounts of light (more light means easier determination of light/dark areas), lenses with wider maximum apertures have a greater distance between the lens sides, so faster/better AF operation.

OK, assuming that made any sense at all, let’s look at using teleconvertors (tc). I am going to assume we are using a 1.4x tc, which reduces the aperture by one stop. Take one f5.6 lens, add a tc and strap it to a 30D…the AF system is disabled because the lens/tc combination is reporting a maximum aperture of f8 to the camera. The AF system is not ‘designed’ to work with that small a distance between the lens sides and the light may miss the sensors all together!

When you ‘tape the pins’ on a tc, the lens/tc reports that the combo is f5.6 and the camera leaves the AF system switched on. As luck would have it, the AF sensors on the 30D seem to be able to handle an f8 lens (makes you wonder if the next generation of the 30D will support AF at f8 as a ‘new’ feature…). From memory, the 350D didn’t handle the f8 combo as well – I can only assume that the AF sensors are even less designed for that small a gap between the lens sides.

Finally I can try to answer Roy’s question. For lenses faster than f5.6 the AF sensors are ‘adjusted’ to handle the extra light and greater distance between lens sides. A slight side note - one of the ‘breakthroughs’ on the EOS 3 was that the AF sensors could work even faster for f2.8 lenses – which has now been carried on in the 1 series bodies and even the 30D (I think).

Why does this matter with taped pins? When using an f4 lens (like the 70-200/4) Canon’s AF system will ‘adjust’ the sensors for the light and width from the f4 lens. By adding the tc you are making the lens/tc combo f5.6 but by taping the pins on the tc, the AF system is still expecting an f4 lens…so the sensors are going to have a tough time with less light and less distance between the lens sides - it is going to cause the sensors to hunt.

Now, why does the lens hunt less with the Kenko and taped pins? I don’t honestly know. I can only assume that the Canon tcs send extra data or manipulate the data from the lens in some way whereas the Kenko one doesn’t (they will make the insides of their tcs the same irrelevant of the camera manufacturer the mount is for). Does this mean that the Canon AF system is designed to work fastest with Canon branded tcs and lenses? Probably – it gives them a competitive advantage! Following that thought through, having the Kenko tc on the camera may mean that the AF system is operating in a generic ‘safe’ mode that allows AF at any aperture of f5.6 or wider…so taping the pins has little effect on the faster lenses.

Whew…I went on longer than I intended and congratulations to anyone who read through to the end and I hope it made some sense to someone.

BTW, before any ‘well actually’ responses, I know that ‘distance between the sides of the lens’ is not a strictly accurate description, but it is a simple way to think/write about it without diagrams… ;)
Very interesting stuff Mark - thanks.:t: :t: :t:
Re the Kenko hunting less than the Canon (certainly on my 70-200 f4) like you say, we can only assume that some different data is being sent to the camera. I see what you are saying about the faster lenses (f4).

Not so sure that this theory holds good for the 100-400 (f5.6 at the long end) but then again I have not tested this lens with the tc's myself. I can only take other peoples word for it that it hunts far less with the kenko.
 
Not so sure that this theory holds good for the 100-400 (f5.6 at the long end) but then again I have not tested this lens with the tc's myself. I can only take other peoples word for it that it hunts far less with the kenko.

I haven't read the posts on POTN or elsewhere about this...but my instant reaction is the variable maximum aperture on the 100-400 and how the camera handles this. Also the smallest things can really impact the AF performance - a couple of the small screws near the camera mount end of my 400/5.6 had worked a little lose and AF was dreadful (light leak?)...I tightened the screws and all was perfect again.

On the same thought process, a small amount of dirt or grease on the camera end of the lens or either end of the tc could also have a huge amount of difference on AF...as could a UV filter on the front of the lens. I am also being cynical having not seen the 'evidence' of the Kenko hunting less than the Canon...especially when I can't think of a reason for it ;)
 
I don't know whether this birder I got talking to in a hide yesterday was taking the **** or not but he said that if your camera hunts a lot trying to get the AF you will eventually burn out the AF motors.I took far less pics after he said this.

Has this ever happened ? Could it ever happen ?

Max.
 
Also the smallest things can really impact the AF performance - a couple of the small screws near the camera mount end of my 400/5.6 had worked a little lose and AF was dreadful (light leak?)...I tightened the screws and all was perfect again.

Aaaarghh, that's exactly what I found on my lens, but before realizing it I got mad and desperate .. now I always carry a small screwdriver in my backpack :t: ... it's the first time I hear of another 400mm's user having this problem: is it something common with this lens?

Ps good explanation of this hard to get theory, I appreciated your "distance between the sides" thing ;)

Max
 
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Max (Senatore),

you hear that about burning out the motors a lot, but I've never come across a definitive "it happened to me!" posting or article.

I'm not sure how much of a "Real World" this is, but I'm not put off - let's face it, given how many TCs are out there, we'd be reading a lot more about self-destructing AF drives if it was happening anything like frequently.
 
Keith beat me to it Max S. I have heard that motors could burn out but never heard of anyone that is has actually happened to. It has not put me off and I have been using a taped tc for more than a year.
 
One possible reason why the camera will hunt less with a particular 1.4x TC and more with another one may be that the two TCs in question may have slightly different magnification factors, and thus, slightly different effective apertures when combined with a f/5.6 lens.

The 1.4 comes from square root of 2 which is close to 1.414. Someone did a comparison of teleconverter magnification ratios a whlie back and found that the effective multiplier can be as low as 1.35 even though the label says "1.4". Unfortunately, I cannot seem to find the link.
 
One possible reason why the camera will hunt less with a particular 1.4x TC and more with another one may be that the two TCs in question may have slightly different magnification factors, and thus, slightly different effective apertures when combined with a f/5.6 lens.

The 1.4 comes from square root of 2 which is close to 1.414. Someone did a comparison of teleconverter magnification ratios a whlie back and found that the effective multiplier can be as low as 1.35 even though the label says "1.4". Unfortunately, I cannot seem to find the link.

Interesting, that could explain it - if the Canon is nearer 1.414x and the Kenko less, it may hunt less - that small amount of difference would be much greater at the AF sensors.
 
I don't know whether this birder I got talking to in a hide yesterday was taking the **** or not but he said that if your camera hunts a lot trying to get the AF you will eventually burn out the AF motors.I took far less pics after he said this.

Has this ever happened ? Could it ever happen ?

Max.
I'm no optical person but I do know a bit about motors.
There's no chance of burning the motor out but you will subject it to excessive wear. this is in turn dependant on the amount of hunting involved.
You pays your money you takes your choice.
You know how it should function, if it's clearly struggling then it's not worth the bother.
 
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