Caspian Gull(?) From Italy. (1 Viewer)

Dimitris · Aug 2, 2006

Hi all!

This juv. bird was found in Italy on the 01.08.2006.

Check:

http://www.surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/gallery/display.cgi?gallery=gallery11

I know it shows good Caspian features ( White underwing,Light coloration overall, Head and bill shape) etc. But can someone tell why this bird is not a Y.L.G.? I think that it's well within the variation of Y.L.G. and if I saw that bird in Greece I would just call it a Y.L.G.

Cheers,

Dimitris

Th_SQ · Aug 2, 2006

I managed to see the pictures at last (a problem with surfbird ?) ...

There are some good points (structure in particular) and some points in contradiction with what is seen as a typical juv Caspian (tertials, coverts, scpaulars, tail, ...).

juv Caspian I've seen so far in august were not so white-headed but it's much variable probably.

Mike Johnston · Aug 2, 2006

I'd say this was probably IDed on structure, compared to YLGs around it. Bill length and even thickness, lack of strong gonydeal angle, wing length, leg length, slimmer shape, etc. Less so on plumage probably - really only looking for possible paler underwing and possible darker bases to upper greater coverts.

lou salomon · Aug 2, 2006

what happened to its tail??! a shark trying to catch it? but that double bar looks ok for caspian (don't know if it occures in YLG), the strong primary window too; i'd have liked to see a clearer dark patch near the legs on bellysides and a smaller looking eye. also pale underwings are not that rare in michahellis. i'd be careful with a fast id on this gull, see that juv YLG from turkey recently! would have liked to see it in nature.

JANJ · Aug 2, 2006

Well at last one gets to see the gull, trouble with Surfbirds.

1st impression is of course cachinnans, pale underwing (seen some similar Yellow-legged).
bill, structure in pic.5, where it together with pic.6 also looks most thin-billed, inner primaries.
If the bill would have been more michahellis like, then in the last pic. I would have no problem calling it michahellis. Tail is damaged, and if it´s the outer tail feathers we see they look alright for Yellow-legged, but probably not reliable to judge. Greater coverts more michahellis like but those inner primaries is not good for a normal' michahellis.
To sum up. All that cachinnans jizz is not to be taken lightly, but a 'strange' looking female michahellis.....

JanJ

Dimitris · Aug 2, 2006

"but a 'strange' looking female michahellis"

That's what I thought as well JanJ and it's only head and breast shape that put me off from Y.L.G. If it had a smaller, fatter bill it would look ok for Y.L.G.

Cheers and thanks for the replies evryone!

Dimitris

Mike Johnston · Aug 2, 2006

Dimitris said:
"but a 'strange' looking female michahellis"

That's what I thought as well JanJ and it's only head and breast shape that put me off from Y.L.G. If it had a smaller, fatter bill it would look ok for Y.L.G.

Cheers and thanks for the replies evryone!

Dimitris

Well, until recently (and still by some) cachinnans and michahellis were both regarded as subspecies of YLG (and before that all were subspecies of Herring Gull!). Differences were always subtle, and mainly structural, especially with juveniles. A long, evenly thick bill with small gonydeal angle was one of the most distinguishing features of cachinnans. One could equally say of a juvenile YLG: 'If it had a longer, thinner bill it would look OK for Caspian'. I suppose there can never be 100% accuracy, but that bill does look pretty convincing.

Th_SQ · Aug 2, 2006

Just as difficult (if not more : strikingly pale underwing, huge pale window, ...) to call this bird michahellis for me ....

In the field (or in a rarities commitee) I would left it unidentified.

JANJ · Aug 2, 2006

Which?

http://www.artportalen.se/artportalen/gallery/images/swe/birds/2006/large/16921.JPG

JanJ

Dimitris · Aug 2, 2006

JanJ you do love to give us nightmares eh? LOL

That's a hybrid

lou salomon · Aug 3, 2006

caspian on first view, lets see what second does.

well, second view: it is discussable for sure. in my curiosity i've searched in 'svala' for its labelling so i know as what it was id-ed.
- greater coverts pattern is more micha-like, but i have found this to be of little use in fresh juv caspian/ylg due to much variation.
- there is a sharp cut dark patch behind the legs on flanks of which rudy offereins means it is diagnostic(?) for caspian. http://www.xs4all.nl/~calidris/cachjuv.htm - on this juv caspian the dark and solid upper mantle reaching well up to lower neck is also visible, which it does in our gull too.
- pointed bill with little "huch" in upper mandible is good for caspian
- seemingly very long primary projection and general longish, elegant built, flat belly with slightly hanging hindpart is also pro-caspian
- face pattern is virtually identical to many michas, eye looks big as in michas, neck doesn't strike as being slim although bird is alert and legs are just in line with micha also: middle long and not very thin (with several exeptional shortish looking in caspian...)

fazit: 70% cachi, 30% micha (knowing that it is stupid to state percentages) :scribe:

Th_SQ · Aug 3, 2006

JANJ said:
Which?

Structure is good for Caspian, tertials and scapulars are typical, greater covers are not bad, dark patch behing legs a reassuring feature. "Dark" head would be typical for early summer (until early-August) Caspian from what I've observed.

I would wait to see underwing and tail to make this bird a Caspian in the field and I will learn Swedish to understand something in artportalen web site
:h?:

JANJ · Aug 3, 2006

Yes, of course, you can look it up, and a Caspian it is.

JanJ

lou salomon · Aug 3, 2006

how do you access the gallery at artportalen, jan? i looked up caspian records of last month in svala and got the pic of larsson, but obviously there is a gallery hidden in that site...how?

JANJ · Aug 3, 2006

Here Lou.

http://www.skof.se/

Th_SQ · Aug 3, 2006

JANJ said:
you can look it up

I tried to find my way to a gallery but failed miserably :C
Could you give us a link (preferably in English) to a gallery Jan ? Thanks

JANJ · Aug 3, 2006

Th_SQ said:
I tried to find my way to a gallery but failed miserably :C
Could you give us a link (preferably in English) to a gallery Jan ? Thanks

If I get you right Th_SQ, the link I posted above in #15 contains the gallery, a bit furter down on the site. It say´s 'Galleri från Svalan'. Klick on it and the Caspians and the Yellow-legged will appear, but only in Swedish I´m afraid.

JanJ

lou salomon · Aug 3, 2006

wow look at the first pic in that series - cach with totally dark axilliaries! actually there is a flash of pale where axilliaries are but around them all is very dark.

Th_SQ · Aug 3, 2006

JANJ said:
If I get you right Th_SQ, the link I posted above in #15 contains the gallery, a bit furter down on the site. It say´s 'Galleri från Svalan'. Klick on it and the Caspians and the Yellow-legged will appear, but only in Swedish I´m afraid.JanJ

I'll try that, thank you. I've just learnt that Caspian Gull is Kaspisk trut

JANJ · Aug 3, 2006

Surprised Lou? If axillaries was that dark as they look in the image in real life, which we have to assume they where, it´s not what we usually associate with Caspian underwing. But a Caspian gull it looks like.

Th_SQ,

I could have told you that cachinnans is 'Kaspisk Trut' and michahellis is 'Medelhavstrut', but I thought that you would figure it out by yourself.

JanJ

Caspian Gull(?) From Italy. (1 Viewer)

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