What Niltava sp. is it? (1 Viewer)

melop · Aug 23, 2005

[New Photos Added] What Niltava sp. is it?

Hi, I'm not sure about this Niltava.

The initial idea is Niltava vivida, but my field guide says that the male of this sp. 's rufous color form a 'V' shape on the neck, which I can't find in the photo.

My current idea is Niltava davidi, but it's unsual here in Guangdong, China.

Another possibility is Niltava sundara which is very similar to N. davidi.

And the bird seems to be a juvenile, because his wing is still rufous.

Any ideas? Thanks!

Rasmus Boegh · Aug 23, 2005

I've got no experiance with the Fujian Niltava (N. davidi), but it certainly looks duller (esp. in the vent area) compared to the Rufous-bellied Niltava's (N. sundara) I've seen. Also, if the map in MacKinnon's & Phillipp's Chinese guide is right, Rufous-bellied Niltava shouldn't be anywhere near Guangdong. Clearly not a Vivid Niltava (N. vivida) which, as you say, has an orange "V" extending up into the dark throat:

http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/s...esult&Bird_ID=2696&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1

melop · Aug 23, 2005

Rasmus, Thank you for your idea.
Maybe it's just a passer-by.

Mark Bruce · Aug 23, 2005

Hi Melop,
I'd agree that you've got a juv here.My initial idea was Fujian Niltava.Then I noticed something.In the neck area above the wing coverts there is a "black triangular patch".Both the Fujian and Rufous-bellied have a triangular patch there.(The diagrams in MacKinnon's don't show this but if you look at Robson's Birds of SE Asia you will see them)The Fujian Niltava has a blue triangular patch and the Rufous-bellied Niltava a black one.Your bird appears to have a black triangular patch.With the amount of escaped cage birds flying around our end of the world,that may account for it in your area.

Rasmus Boegh · Aug 23, 2005

This isn't a juvenile. Juveniles are very different. However, I agree that it is a sub-ad. male as the flight feathers are old. Mark, I'm not completely sure what triangular patch you're talking about, but if it's the area I've marked, then it isn't useful for ID as it is dark bluish-black in both N. davidi & N. sundara (if it appears black or dark blue depends on light). To my knowledge there are three features that are useful, one of which (pale vent/belly) clearly point towards N. davidi (but could perhaps be explained by it being a sub-ad. N. sundara), while the last two (crown and shoulder) are more problematic as they point towards N. davidi in this first photo, but, as far as I can see, N. sundara in the second! Again, it should be noted that I have no experiance with N. davidi, but I've seen a fair number of N. sundara. Here's a few photos you can compate it with:

http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?action=searchresult&Bird_ID=2670
http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?action=searchresult&Bird_ID=2671

As there only are two Fujian Niltava's on OBI I found a few more you can compare it with (be warned, the second link is slow and the last is a specimen):

1) http://community.webshots.com/photo/132756585/132756585MkyoIN
2) http://www.cnbird.org.cn/mysite/jpg/2004122176487281.jpg
3) http://www.ngensis.com/BIRDS/NGB-40.JPG

Edward woodwood · Aug 23, 2005

mmmm

yes, davidi or sundara

looks most like a sundara with a lighter belly due to immaturity?

head looks better for sundara with more extensive pale blue crown

maps in China book next to useless on the whole!

Tim

Jane Turner · Aug 23, 2005

Am ressurecting the ID index.. are Nitlava's close enough to flycatchers for me to put it there?

Rasmus Boegh · Aug 23, 2005

Jane Turner said:
Am ressurecting the ID index.. are Nitlava's close enough to flycatchers for me to put it there?

Great idea! I was wondering if the project had been "burried" - so to speak. Niltava's are close relatives of the genus Ficedula and true members of the so-called "Old World Flycatcher's".

Anyway, personally, I still have some serious doubt over this one, perhaps in part fuelled by the general lack of literature on these species combined with my lack of experiance with N. davidi. Anybody else feel like commenting? Would be nice to get a comment from anybody with experiance in N. davidi (don't know if Tim or Mark has seen it)...

James Eaton · Aug 23, 2005

I'm not sure on this bird, I have plenty of experience with male N. Sundara but no confirmed N. Davidi. These two species are incredibly difficult to tell apart in this plumage, personally I dount it is possible to safely identify this bird. Vocalisation is perhaps the only safe way to id these species. Especially with this bird being a 1st summer, so the paler undertail coverts/belly could be due to immaturity rather than being a good pointer to it being davidi.

Melop, what altitude was this bird at? Was it in the mountains or low down? As these birds tend to breed at different altitudes. The distribution maps in relation to the birds in McKinnon can be slightly inaccurate, so N. Davidi may well still occur in your area.

All the best

James

melop · Aug 24, 2005

Thank you for everyone's helpful ideas.

I agree that the lighter color on the belly may due to immature. James, the altitude here is not high, not higher than 70 meters and it's not mountain area.

So it's more likely to be N. sundara? I received the book A checklist on the classification and ditribution of the birds of China today, and found N. davidi's distribution area covers Guangdong.

Mark Bruce · Aug 24, 2005

Yes Rasmus,it's a sub adult.You have the black patch.While you dismiss it,and many field guides don't even show it,my experience is it does appear more blackish in the field on the Rufous-bellied.Admittedly,I was not really looking at this out in the field,so yes you may well be right.It is shown in Robson's,but not noted as such in the text.It is something that I will be conscious of now and will ask my mates in some of the mainland clubs for their experiences and to look out for it.

And Tim,"maps in China book next to useless on the whole!" not perfect,but calling them "next to useless"I think is a little harsh.

melop · Aug 24, 2005

3 more photos

Hi all, I found 3 more photos of the same bird took at the same day by other birders.

It looks like N. sundara more than N. davidi in the 2nd and 3rd photos. However, the belly is pale in the first one. Maybe because of flash light?

Edward woodwood · Aug 30, 2005

Mark Bruce said:
Yes Rasmus,it's a sub adult.You have the black patch.While you dismiss it,and many field guides don't even show it,my experience is it does appear more blackish in the field on the Rufous-bellied.Admittedly,I was not really looking at this out in the field,so yes you may well be right.It is shown in Robson's,but not noted as such in the text.It is something that I will be conscious of now and will ask my mates in some of the mainland clubs for their experiences and to look out for it.

And Tim,"maps in China book next to useless on the whole!" not perfect,but calling them "next to useless"I think is a little harsh.

have a read of the review in OBC Bulletin (no 28ish) !!!

Tim

What Niltava sp. is it? (1 Viewer)

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