Whoever said Sand Plovers were easy? (1 Viewer)

Dave B · Aug 26, 2006

Some Sand Plovers are very easy to pick out as Greater or Lesser, but there are others that leave me quite confused.

Here's a case in point. The majority of Lessers we get here are the long-billed schaeferi race.

Interested to what you think this is and why. Pictures taken today in Penang, Malaysia.

Cheers,

Dave

Xenospiza · Aug 26, 2006

I'd say Lesser: looks short, with rather short legs. Broad breast band, orange flanks.

cuckooroller · Aug 26, 2006

I agree with Xeno. Another distinguisher is the rounded caput (of the Lesser) respect to the more squared-off blockier profile of the Greater.

Edit: Dave, thanks for the mention of the bill length of the ranging race of the Lesser. I must admit the bill had me thrown for a second.

Edward woodwood · Aug 26, 2006

Lesser for me too

seen many out there, from Malaysia to Oz, but can't remember the other races without checking... I think mongolus of the mongolus group occurs just a little further east and is slightly shorter-billed...

this bird doesn't seem that short-billed to me though

Tim

Dave B · Aug 28, 2006

Tim Allwood said:
Lesser for me too

seen many out there, from Malaysia to Oz, but can't remember the other races without checking... I think mongolus of the mongolus group occurs just a little further east and is slightly shorter-billed...

this bird doesn't seem that short-billed to me though

Tim

Good, glad we're all of the same mind on this one!

The problem is that the supposedly diagnostic features - tibia length, bill length and shape, head shape, posture etc, seem to me to be very subjective. Wonder if it would have been so easy if the bird had been in non-breeding plumage?

With sand plovers I tend to see one and immediately say "That's a Lesser" or whatever, but if someone were to ask me why, I'm quite hard pressed to say. Identifying them from photos can sometimes be more tricky than id'ing them in the field.

Mostly I find that, if I'm wondering if it's a Greater, then it's probably a Lesser. Greaters really stand out when you see one.

Here's a Greater. Why is it one? The legs don't look long to me, the head is rounded, it looks quite dumpy, the bill isn't especially pointed. It just is one!

Maybe it's the proportions that make a difference. Lesser looks well-proportioned; Greater seems to have a head to big for the body and a bill to big for the head!

JANJ · Aug 28, 2006

Right Dave, tricky business!
Your first one here seems to be a schaeferi of the 'atrifrons' group which is longer-billed, (schaeferi in particurlarly), longer-legged but with relativly shorther wings and usually black forehead (which your bird has a hint of) sometimes with pale 'spots' at the sides, lack of black line to the upper chestnut breast band. and lack of chestnut or dark markings on the flanks.
Usually leg colour is rather reilable (if not covered in mud).
If you look at the two sandplovers here, the Lesser has a nail that is shorter (and a bit more swollen), than the inner part of the bill, measured to the loral point, while in t the Greater the nail, which tapers to a finer pointed tip, is longer than the inner part of the bill, measured to the loral point. The differevce would be more obvious compared to the 'mongolus' group. The Greater here, the nominate leschenaultii, probably a female, is shorther billed/legged/winged than Crassirostris.

JanJ

gerdwichers8 · Aug 28, 2006

Lesser for me as well. Short and dark legged
About the bill tip-bill base; it is in this bird about the same length as billbase-biltip and billbase-rear of the eye
It shows Kentish like hunched position as well(another in the background as well?)

Dave B · Aug 29, 2006

gerdwichers8 said:
Lesser for me as well. Short and dark legged
About the bill tip-bill base; it is in this bird about the same length as billbase-biltip and billbase-rear of the eye
It shows Kentish like hunched position as well(another in the background as well?)

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you saying you think the non-breeding plumage bird is Lesser as well?

JANJ · Aug 29, 2006

Dave.

Speaking for my self, last one is Greater as I see it.

JanJ

gerdwichers8 · Aug 29, 2006

Dave B said:
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you saying you think the non-breeding plumage bird is Lesser as well?

No, in the first picture there is something as a ghost standing in the background, but it shows the same hunched position, thats what I asked for.

Edit: In the second picture of the first set; the third is the Greater.

Dave B · Aug 30, 2006

gerdwichers8 said:
No, in the first picture there is something as a ghost standing in the background, but it shows the same hunched position, thats what I asked for.

Edit: In the second picture of the first set; the third is the Greater.

OK, good! Yes, the 'ghost' in the background is probably Lesser too. There were only 3-4 Greaters among the hundreds of Lessers.

Dave B · Sep 3, 2006

JANJ said:
Right Dave, tricky business!
Your first one here seems to be a schaeferi of the 'atrifrons' group which is longer-billed, (schaeferi in particurlarly), longer-legged but with relativly shorther wings and usually black forehead (which your bird has a hint of) sometimes with pale 'spots' at the sides, lack of black line to the upper chestnut breast band. and lack of chestnut or dark markings on the flanks.
Usually leg colour is rather reilable (if not covered in mud).
If you look at the two sandplovers here, the Lesser has a nail that is shorter (and a bit more swollen), than the inner part of the bill, measured to the loral point, while in t the Greater the nail, which tapers to a finer pointed tip, is longer than the inner part of the bill, measured to the loral point. The differevce would be more obvious compared to the 'mongolus' group. The Greater here, the nominate leschenaultii, probably a female, is shorther billed/legged/winged than Crassirostris.

JanJ

I find Jan's comments about the shape and size of the 'nail' helpful. But I still find some birds confusing. My gut feeling on this one says Lesser. But the bill shape suggests Greater. Thoughts anyone?

JANJ · Sep 3, 2006

Hi Dave!

Pitty that your last bird isn´t in a more straight profile, never the less, it looks like a Lesser (schaeferi). It surely looks to thin-billed (especially bill base) to be a Greater (leschenaultii), and structure, leg lenght looks good for Lesser. Due to angle of the head it´s impossible to be sure of the bill characters mentioned earlier, nail lenght compared to base lenght, variable though due to a certain overlap, juvenile Greater sometimes has a shorther nail comp. to base. In pic. 1 (first bird) bill lenght, from tip to loral tip is as long as from the loral tip to behind the eye, and that combined with bill character looks very good for Lesser.

Is this a Greater?

http://www.wwfchina.org/birdgallery/showpic.shtm?id=11013

I would def. say that this is:

http://www.wwfchina.org/birdgallery/showpic.shtm?id=6466

What about this one:

http://www.pbase.com/alibenn/image/43603451

No doubt about this:

http://www.pbase.com/alibenn/image/46913642

Have you seen these ID articles?

http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0407d&L=birdwg01&T=0&P=614

JanJ

Dave B · Sep 3, 2006

JANJ said:
Hi Dave!

Pitty that your last bird isn´t in a more straight profile, never the less, it looks like a Lesser (schaeferi). It surely looks to thin-billed (especially bill base) to be a Greater (leschenaultii), and structure, leg lenght looks good for Lesser. Due to angle of the head it´s impossible to be sure of the bill characters mentioned earlier, nail lenght compared to base lenght, variable though due to a certain overlap, juvenile Greater sometimes has a shorther nail comp. to base. In pic. 1 (first bird) bill lenght, from tip to loral tip is as long as from the loral tip to behind the eye, and that combined with bill character looks very good for Lesser.

Is this a Greater?

http://www.wwfchina.org/birdgallery/showpic.shtm?id=11013

I would def. say that this is:

http://www.wwfchina.org/birdgallery/showpic.shtm?id=6466

What about this one:

http://www.pbase.com/alibenn/image/43603451

No doubt about this:

http://www.pbase.com/alibenn/image/46913642

Have you seen these ID articles?

http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0407d&L=birdwg01&T=0&P=614

JanJ

Oh boy - now I'm really confused!

Link 1 I would say was Kentish (white collar)

2 seems to show characteristics of both Greater and Lesser - Lesser - blunt bill tip and 'nail' covering less than half the bill length, plus rather rounded head; in favour of Greater - thick base to the bill.

3 appears to show another Kentish (white collar again)

4 Is this mongolus group? Interestingly the bill-base seems quite thick!

The last link takes me only to a summary note referring to a longer paper. My reaction is - what - a third species? Help!

JANJ · Sep 3, 2006

Sorry about the last link, which was meant to show the the two papers I refered to.

You see, diffficult to get it right, of course first and third looks like Kentish (dealbatus) this one pale -legged and long-legged. Two is def. a Lesser, never seen a Greater with such a short and blunt-tipped bill (not even reaching the end of the eye)

Four appears to be mongolus group, black on upper border of breast band and big white "head lights". Rather simmilar to this one:

http://home.pacifier.com/~birder/plover.html

It´s quite obvious that we know less than we might think of both (three?) these species.due to conciderable variation.

JanJ

Ghostly Vision · Sep 3, 2006

This is a great thread - I find these two/three species endlessly fascinating.

From experience, I tend to find these easier to identify from photographs than in life, as it is easier to judge things like bill shape/structure, whether legs extend beyond tail in flight, etc. etc. from a still than when a bird is moving.

That said, I'll make a twit of myself and make some guesses.

Dave's photo in post 12 is a very tricky one, but my initial reaction was Greater; the tibia (am I right in calling the bit above the knee this?) is very long, and the tip of the bill seems to be rather attenuated, rather than the steep angled, blunt-tipped bill of Lesser. I also have form memory somewhere that orange on the nape indicated Greater rather than Lesser, but I might be wrong on that point.

As for the links you provided, Jan, I'd agree clearly with 1 & 3 as Kentish.

2 & 4:Lesser

I'm not going to be brave enough to differentiate between the two Lessers without reference to literature.

Let's have some more!

Sean

gerdwichers8 · Sep 3, 2006

JANJ said:
Is this a Greater?

http://www.wwfchina.org/birdgallery/showpic.shtm?id=11013

size of the bill is way out of range for Greater, but what about its legcolour: Often it is said that Lesser has blackish leg color, but it is found that this species should have a more green color.
As in this bird.
What would you say about the legcolor for Lesser; can it be dark olive green or even olive green?
I have a bird like that under discussion for more than ten years!

JANJ · Sep 3, 2006

Check these:

http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/m2005-07-01/

http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/m2005-03-01/

JanJ

Dave B · Sep 4, 2006

Ghostly Vision said:
This is a great thread - I find these two/three species endlessly fascinating.

From experience, I tend to find these easier to identify from photographs than in life, as it is easier to judge things like bill shape/structure, whether legs extend beyond tail in flight, etc. etc. from a still than when a bird is moving.

That said, I'll make a twit of myself and make some guesses.

Dave's photo in post 12 is a very tricky one, but my initial reaction was Greater; the tibia (am I right in calling the bit above the knee this?) is very long, and the tip of the bill seems to be rather attenuated, rather than the steep angled, blunt-tipped bill of Lesser. I also have form memory somewhere that orange on the nape indicated Greater rather than Lesser, but I might be wrong on that point.

As for the links you provided, Jan, I'd agree clearly with 1 & 3 as Kentish.

2 & 4:Lesser

I'm not going to be brave enough to differentiate between the two Lessers without reference to literature.

Let's have some more!

Sean

Hi Sean

I must say I find that field identification is easier than with isolated still photos. For one thing, Greater has a different 'typical' feeding mode - tends to dash across the mud chasing crabs rather in the manner of Terek Sandpiper, while Lesser is a much more sedate feeder (seems to listen more for prey??). Also, I get a better feel for overall jizz on a moving bird than one frozen in a single pose.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find leg length and proportions very difficult to judge. For one thing, the angle of the photographer affects apparent leg length. If he/she is above the height of the bird, then foreshortening comes into play, and sometimes the base of the tibia can't be seen. For another, I find the relative length of tibia to tarsus on both species quite similar. I think the reason Greater often look 'leggy' is that the legs are longer relative to the 'height' of the body - Greater tends to sit very horizontal and has a slender body shape, while Lesser typically sits more upright and has a rounder body - but posture is so variable that it isn't always possible to be sure.

With my photo in post 12, I initially put it down as Lesser, then changed to Greater, and am now back to Lesser again! I used to think the orange nape was a good feature for Greater, and maybe it is in spring, but on the worn-plumaged birds I am seeing now there are plenty of Lessers with orange feathering around the nape.

Jan is coming up with some fascinating links, so plenty more to keep us scratching our heads!

Cheers

Dave

Dave B · Sep 4, 2006

JANJ said:
Check these:

http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/m2005-07-01/

http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/m2005-03-01/

JanJ

The pics in the first link are fascinating because they show a range of bill profile shapes for Lesser. Also, some of these Lessers have very yellow legs

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