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Another Gull ID (1 Viewer)

Fulmar

Fulmar

Well-known member
I had this gull originally identified as a Lesser Black-backed Gull / Larus graellsii due to the not so heavy looking size of the bill, and the wingtips not showing much white.

On second thoughts however I changed my mind to Great Black-backed Gull / Larus marinus, because of the fleshy-looking color of the legs (if that is not caused by being in the shadow?), and the very dark color of the wings.

It is flying over the North Sea not far from the Dutch coast on June 16.

Anyone likes to comment?

Peter
 

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I would agree with initial id of Lesser Black-backed Gull but of the race Larus intermedius (not graellsii) due to very dark upperparts. Could be wrong but don't think nominate fuscus would be in this location.

Tom
 
Thanks for your replies!

But reading your answers I became a bit confused about the scientific names, so I checked my Dutch version of the Svensson et al where I learned that the Lesser Black-backed / Larus fuscus was split into three: Lesser Black-backed / Larus graellsii, Baltic / L. fuscus, and Heuglin's / L. heuglini.

Larus fuscus and Larus graellsii are also listed as such on the official Dutch species list. Is this the same as on the official British list?

Combining this info I conclude that the gull on my photo is a Lesser Black-backed Gull of the W. Scandinavian subspecies with the scientific name Larus graellsii intermedius?

Peter
 
Hi Peter,

The Dutch records authority have a way of splitting everything into lots of species. Other national records committees have not followed suit.

Combining this info I conclude that the gull on my photo is a Lesser Black-backed Gull of the W. Scandinavian subspecies with the scientific name Larus graellsii intermedius?
Click to expand...
- by the Dutch species list, yes, that's correct. In Britain, both graellsii and intermedius are still treated as subspecies of L. fuscus.

Michael
 
Thanks for the clarification Michael. Maybe the Dutch want to have more ticks than the British? ;)

I indeed had already noticed that the Pied and the White Wagtail are considered as two species on the Dutch list while I had got the impression from threads in this Forum that the British still have it as one species. All quite confusing!

If there was only a worldwide single authority to decide on these things.........

Peter
 
Hi Peter,

Could be!

Yep, Pied & White Wags are the same species over here - so are lots of others you probably have as different, e.g. Yellow/Blue-headed/Grey-headed etc Wags., Taiga & Tundra Bean Geese, Eurasian & Greenland Whitefront Geese, DB, PB, & Black Brent Geese, Caspian/Yellow-legged Gull, and many more. Some will probably be split here too eventually, but several probably won't ever be (at least not until they evolve greater differences in half a million years!).

Michael
 
In Holland the breeding LBBG are considered an intergrade population which shows mixed characteristics of graelsii and intermedius. Some look like one, some like the other and some in between, they all freely interbreed.

Spud
 
Hi Spud,

Interesting, but not too surprising - old distribution maps show a range gap in LBB's range (between NE Netherlands & SE England/N France), but this has filled in on later maps.

So presumably the two races have expanded, met, and decided they like each other.

Do you know anything about the boundary between intermedius & fuscus?

Michael
 
Hey Spud, let's make it a new subspecies, graelmedius?

Anyway, I'm going to stick to the Santa Barbara Software's Clement's database which I recently bought, not at least because you are informed when splits or lumps are taking place, on a worldwide scale.

I have to get used however to things like using e.g. Gray instead of Grey, or Loon instead of Diver (Loon sounds much nicer to me, especially when connected with the weird but beautiful yodelling sound of the Common Loon!), but so be it.

Unfortunately I had to remove the Pied Wagtail from my lifelist, but on the credit side I could add the Hooded Crow (split from the Carrion Crow) and the Black-billed Magpie (split from the Eurasian Magpie)!

Peter
 
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Fulmar said:
I could add the Hooded Crow (split from the Carrion Crow) and the Black-billed Magpie (split from the Eurasian Magpie)!
Click to expand...

Hi Peter,

I thought the Dutch list already had Carrion & Hooded Crows split!

Just checking on the magpies: Black-billed Magpie = American Magpie - can only tick this one if you've been to America!

Michael
 
Hi Michael,

Yes, that is correct, but I had seen the Hooded Crow already somewhere in the early 70s or so and at the time had it noted as a subspecies, and I had never noticed the split. So therefore it was a recent addition for me!

Ref the Magpie, I have indeed seen it in the USA, and happily I not only noted just species on my lifelist, but also the countries in which I had seen them. Thus I discovered recently that I had another "new" species to add to my list!

The scientific names used to be a reliable lasting name, at least for the species part, but even there you have to be careful nowadays. An example being the Stonechat (Common Stonechat on Clement's) which is on the British list as Saxicola torquata. The Dutch list, and Clement's in this case too, have torquata now split and they assigned the original name Saxicola torquata to the African Stonechat, while our European species, the Common Stonechat, has changed to Saxicola rubicola. When you and I are talking about Saxicola torquata, we think we speak about the same thing while in fact we speak about two different ones. This can cause serious confusion!

Peter
 
Hi Peter,

On the stonechats - very true, it is easy to get confused! The first stonechat ever described (by Linnaeus) was a museum specimen from Cape Province, South Africa, which is why Saxicola torquata applies to the African Stonechat after splitting. Fortunately, this split at least will almost certainly become widespread soon (several lists already follow it, not only the Dutch list - the UK list is slow here), as the evidence for them being different species is very strong.

I guess here, like with your noting everything you see anywhere (very good!!), is also to note the subspecies involved every time you see a species. The European Stonechat has long been called Saxicola torquata rubicola, and if you know that, switching to Saxicola rubicola becomes a lot easier and more obvious. Trouble is, not all books give the subspecies names!

Michael
 
Hi Fulmar

I think your revised opinion of the species is probably the correct I.D for this bird, much too heavy bodied for a lesser, very dark wing and leading white edge also I.D this bird. You say you thought the legs were more flesh coloured, Icopied this photo to Photoshop and lightened it, the legs are definately flesh coloured. This also leans towards this being a Great Black-backed Gull.

nirofo.
 
I think this is a Lesser due to the small bill, lack of a complete white tip to p10, large looking eye and the fact that, to me, it just looks like a Lesser.

Michael,

I don't know if any recent work has been done on fuscus vs intermedius where the ranges overlap in Norway but I do know that some of the characteristics of moult which Lars Jonsson outlined as typical of fuscus compared to western forms have now been found to occur in a few presumed intermedius on migration in Holland. These characteristics, mainly involving moult suspensions related to the long migration of fuscus, probably occur occasionally in the northernmost intermedius due to their similarly long migration (though to West rather than East Africa) which is believed to occur as a series of long hops with Portugal as a major staging post.

Spud
 
Hi Spud,
Thanks for the info!

Hi Nirofo,
I copied the photo and lightened it a lot too, and the legs stay very obstinately bright yellow (see below!). I also agree with Spud on the bill size, etc. - I'm staying with intermedius LBB

Michael
 
Michael Frankis said:
Hi Peter,



Yep, Pied & White Wags are the same species over here -
Michael
Click to expand...
Michael does that mean that pied and white are the same bird.A chap came into the hide last year and pointed out to me a White Wagtail,(a group of them)he said they were only passing through,I forget where too now,but he said they were different to the pied Wagtails,and they did look slightly different.Or have I got it wrong?.I don't think I have,
Christine.
 
I think the answer to that Christine, is, yes they are the same bird (ie species) but they do look different.

Pieds are the British race of Whites, and it's because we generally only see Pieds that (I reckon) we have come to view them as a species in their own right.

Truth be told, though... in my opinion there are other birds more similar than Pied and White Wagitails that are considered separate species - and for that matter, one's more different that aren't!
 
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