Discussion thread for Iberian Magpie. If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.
-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Iberian Magpie (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Andy Hurley
- Start date
Can anyone add to the Movement section entry for the Iberian Magpie . I think it needs improving. I have found this site that shows that dispersion occurs due to bad weather in NE Spain and SW France to within range, but would like something more specific before adding to the entry, if it is out there.
Many thanks
Many thanks
Last edited:
Thanks Hotspur. Currently we have the range as Spain and Portugal, but anything that tightens up that description is most welcome
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
There's a map for Spain (excluding Portuguese range) here; doesn't give the Torrevieja population though.
For Portugal, from BWP Concise, the southern third of the country, plus a narrow strip up the eastern side north to the same latitude as where the Spanish map shows it occurring on the Spanish side of the border.
Edit: Portuguese map here (made from e-bird sightings, I think).
For Portugal, from BWP Concise, the southern third of the country, plus a narrow strip up the eastern side north to the same latitude as where the Spanish map shows it occurring on the Spanish side of the border.
Edit: Portuguese map here (made from e-bird sightings, I think).
Last edited:
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
On the page details, I'd say more should be made of the importance of acorns and Stone Pine Pinus pinea pine nuts in the diet - they from the bulk of the diet, with large amounts cached for later use (invertebrates etc., only secondary importance). The species is the main natural dispersal agent for Pinus pinea, with their native ranges nearly coincident.
I'll check through plant taxonomy & names in a day or two :t:
I'll check through plant taxonomy & names in a day or two :t:
Hotspur
James Spencer
Colony only found in the last few years after some extra limitatal records. Opinion split as to whether extralimital birds at Gran Alacant were vagrants which founded the Torrevieja colony or dispersal from it.
John Cantelo
Well-known member
Anyone got further info or references regarding on the Torrevieja population (i.e. how where & when it was discovered, proof of breeding etc)? The only source I could find was http://www.bargainbirdingclub.com/downloads/Alicante-Spain-nov.pdf It seems quite a range extension for a largely sedentary bird. It's recorded as breeding in the area in Garcia & de Juana's 'Birds of the Iberian Peninsula' (although am I right in assuming that the population is found in the Sierra de Espuna, Murcia (as Garcia & de Juana note a record for there in February 4th 2006).
That book tells me that the "species is largely sedentary. Recoveries of birds ringed as adults have all been local and the furthest recovery as a chick was 45km. Altitudinal movements have been reported in the Sierra de Gredos, where birds descend to the foothills in winter. individuals have wandered north: to Polientes, Cantabria, in Nov 1967 and to Pajares pass, on the Asturias?Castilla y Leon boundary in autumn 1975. One was in the far south-east at the Sierra de Espuna, Murcia on February 4th 2006. There are some 30 records north-east of the breeding range, notably in Catalonia, Valencia and the Ebro valley: recent reports there a flock of eight at Ezcaray, La Rioja in October 2002 and one at San Llorenc Savall Barcelona in September 2005. In addition, there are six records (of seven birds) for France, the most recent being one in the Camargue in December 2005. In general, although some individuals, or even small flocks, may wander quite far, such occurrences are rare" (I've omitted references here)
Some background historical info can be found here - http://birdingcadizprovince.weebly.com/cadiz-birding-blog-page/almost-widdringtons-magpie
Hotspur
James Spencer
I've seen them - there are perhaps a dozen birds, maybe more in an urbanisation. There should be some info on the Costa Blanca bird club site.
John Cantelo
Well-known member
I've just heard back about these birds from Ernest Garcia who wrote "These birds were almost certainly introduced. The initial birds were reputedly carrying rings". This seems quite likely given how little they wander.
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
If the species is highly sedentary, and these are in an urban area, perhaps derived from escaped cagebirds?
Edit: just cross-posted with John :t:
Hotspur
James Spencer
Fair enough but to call it an urban area is a misnomer. It is adjacent to a massive parc natural. The urbanisation is akin to a pretty rural suburb. Lots of Stone Pines and tonnes of other species like Stone Curlew, Hoopoe, Thekla Lark.
The colony might have been introduced, but is it self-sustaining?
@Nutcracker
Thanks for your input. I thought I might have to do a crash course in Spanish,lol, but the map saved the day!
Good work on the maps. Clement have range covering all of the Iberian Peninsula, which seems a bit broad by your maps
On diet, do you have a reference for confirmation, or is this from your own observation?
As I see it, this is the norm for corvids living further north, due to climate and cold temperatures and snow, etc in the Winter, but I wonder about availability of invertebrates on the Iberian peninsula, wouldn't they be more broadly available than futher north?
I'm looking forward to your plant taxonomy details in a few days.
@Nutcracker
Thanks for your input. I thought I might have to do a crash course in Spanish,lol, but the map saved the day!
Good work on the maps. Clement have range covering all of the Iberian Peninsula, which seems a bit broad by your maps
On diet, do you have a reference for confirmation, or is this from your own observation?
As I see it, this is the norm for corvids living further north, due to climate and cold temperatures and snow, etc in the Winter, but I wonder about availability of invertebrates on the Iberian peninsula, wouldn't they be more broadly available than futher north?
I'm looking forward to your plant taxonomy details in a few days.
Thanks John, is this local knowledge, or is there a paper on this? Can you supply a reference, even if it is in Spanish? Nothing wrong with local knowledge, of course it should be taken into account too, but the power of the pen puts a time and place to this.
Excellent, thank you John
John Cantelo
Well-known member
Ernest didn't reference any paper to support his conclusion so I can't comment on the source of his knowledge but as you know he's very well connected and knows the Spanish scene as well or better than anyone. Looking at the Costa Blanca Bird Club website (http://www.costablancabirdclub.com/la-mata-and-surrounding-area-malcolm-palmer/) it seems that the birds haven't been present for long since in November 2016 an entry reads ".... behind the Torrevieja Hospital, where a group of Azure-winged Magpies has made its home over the last couple of years". Hence it's probably too early to say whether or not the population is self-sustaining. From GoogleEarth it looks like there's not a huge amount of suitable habitat in the immediate vicinity and if the 'founder' population is small then it could run into trouble after a few years. Incidentally, from the few photos (not ideal) I've seen they do appear to be Spanish birds rather than their Chinese cousins .....
Thanks John. So this Torrevieja population looks as if it is likely to be introduced, but the local Iberian Magpie. How long does one normally wait to see the population establish itself before it is deemed sustainable? The lack of suitable habitat could well be a factor in this attempt to establish the species that far east.
Interestingly, your own article has a map that shows the eastern seaboard as too dry. Time will tell ultimately, if they make it.
In your opinion, one I respect, do you feel I should mention this population? Maybe something like the following would suffice:
This species is thought to have been introduced to Torrevieja in around 2014, on the eastern side of Spain about 200 km away from existing populations. Due to a lack of suitable habitat and the prevailing arid climate, time will ultimately tell if the attempt to populate this area has been a success.
And for movement, I suggest something like:
Evidence from bird ringing projects suggest that although this species is usually sedentary, in the Sierra de Gredos, in central Spain, and at the Pajares pass in northwest Spain it appears to ocasionally make altitudinal migrations to lower valleys to avoid bad weather in the winter. There are several records of movement in southeastern France, the most recent in the Camargue in December 2005. In general, occurences of individuals or small groups making such journeys are rare.
Interestingly, your own article has a map that shows the eastern seaboard as too dry. Time will tell ultimately, if they make it.
In your opinion, one I respect, do you feel I should mention this population? Maybe something like the following would suffice:
This species is thought to have been introduced to Torrevieja in around 2014, on the eastern side of Spain about 200 km away from existing populations. Due to a lack of suitable habitat and the prevailing arid climate, time will ultimately tell if the attempt to populate this area has been a success.
And for movement, I suggest something like:
Evidence from bird ringing projects suggest that although this species is usually sedentary, in the Sierra de Gredos, in central Spain, and at the Pajares pass in northwest Spain it appears to ocasionally make altitudinal migrations to lower valleys to avoid bad weather in the winter. There are several records of movement in southeastern France, the most recent in the Camargue in December 2005. In general, occurences of individuals or small groups making such journeys are rare.
Last edited:
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
Northeastern France? :eek!: I hope a typo! Didn't even know they'd been recorded in France at all!
