YL Gull or hybrid? - UK (1 Viewer)

pabs · Oct 24, 2007

I id'd this bird as a Yellow-legged Gull but a local gull expert thought it was not quite right and wondered about a hybrid. I am not familiar with hybrids. The red eye ring is present but not prominent, the mantle perhaps is a little darker than it should be but it was a very dull day and light was starting to fade. As far as bill and head shape is concerned, I have no idea about separating with these features.
Any opinions welcome,
Paul
www.birdlist.co.uk

Twite · Oct 24, 2007

Hi Pabs.

Looks like a Herring Gull argentatus northern type. based on darker grey on back, extent of white in wingtip, the top of the head looks rounded and the forhead doesn't look flat enough. As you said the light isn't great, but the legs look pinkish. I think YL has a more agressive look. (Bring on the experts)

Twite.

birderbf · Oct 24, 2007

Twite said:
Hi Pabs.

Looks like a Herring Gull argentatus northern type. based on darker grey on back, extent of white in wingtip, the top of the head looks rounded and the forhead doesn't look flat enough. As you said the light isn't great, but the legs look pinkish. I think YL has a more agressive look. (Bring on the experts)

Twite.

Can't help much on the IDs, but I have never seen a Herring Gull with that combination of color on the beak. Overall, it doesn't seem quite right. I can't define it exactly, but I'm suspecting something other than Herring. Maybe.

Hotspur · Oct 24, 2007

Mantle colour looks better for northern Herring than YLG but im rubbish at these

pabs · Oct 24, 2007

Many thanks for the comments so far. The bird does have yellow legs. It is clearer on some of the other photos I have. It was wading around in a lot of mud which is why they are not very clear. The bill also has mud on it.
Regards,
Paul

lou salomon · Oct 24, 2007

hi paul,

hard to say for sure but structurally it looks indeed more like an argentatus than michahellis. it looks compact, bill is not as heavy as in YLG, it's not chesty. could be from the baltic sea (yellow legs). the iris looks too whitish for YLG. on the other hand striation should be stronger in a typical HG at this time but that varies. as for the hybrid theory - really hard to say, tertial crescents are not very wide...

pabs · Oct 24, 2007

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. Not quite in the zone for separating these gulls yet but this one has added a bit more to the knowledge base.
regards,
Paul

pabs · Oct 24, 2007

I can see what birderbf means about the bill colour. A lot of photos I have looked at show a brighter yellow with an almost glossy look whereas my bird has a more yellowy orange bill with more of a matt finish.

lou salomon · Oct 24, 2007

and there's no red bleeding in upper mandible which michahellis (can) show at this time.
- but caution, there exist YLG with large white p10 apical spots and this bird seems to moult (messy primaries). smudge around eye is also nice for michahellis as the fine head streaking is. a female michahellis? but - they don't develop the all white apical spot, and i think it's not a male micha!
- head shape is not quite right and i think it may be an argentatus but again, more photos in different angles or the bird flying would help ...
- bluish tingue in the mantle (for my eyes on this monitor) - pro argentatus

grahamB · Oct 25, 2007

Hi Pabs. As someone who has been struggling with YLG, argentataus and HG/LBB hybrids recently (just up the Severn from you), I can add nothing to what has already been posted about your gull (nice picture though!). I am beginning to wonder whether a few birders chalk up any dark-mantled Herring Gull-types (especialy if leg colour is not all that distinct) as YLG without always asking themselves if there are other possibilities. There are certainly examples of this amongst other threads on BF!
Identifying these gulls seems to be more of an art than a science- and photos do not always allow others to judge easily. Perhaps a DNA profile is the only way of being certain.

Best wishes
Graham

pabs · Oct 25, 2007

Yes Graham, I think you are right. Experience through studying many different individuals seems to be valuable. These birds need to be approached with an open mind. Certainly submitting photos to this q&a has helped a lot.

rmielcarek · Oct 25, 2007

How common are argentatus Herring Gulls with yellow legs?

Here in the Bristol area argentatus HGs are decidedly scarce, probably only 1 or 2 records a year. With the large local mixed breeding colonies of HG and LBBs hybrids between these 2 species are commoner and, in my experience, often show this bluey tinged mantle colour, odd bart part colouration and an intermediate structure.

Have you got any other pics of it Paul?

Rich M

Steven Astley · Oct 25, 2007

grahamB said:
Identifying these gulls seems to be more of an art than a science- and photos do not always allow others to judge easily. Perhaps a DNA profile is the only way of being certain.

Best wishes
Graham

Couldn't agree more Graham thats way a stay away from gulls. As Yellow-legged gull is morphologically inbetween Herring and Lesser which by common sense a hybrid of the 2 should be aswell.

Hybrids are variable and I am sure I remember reading somewhere where a ringed hybrid of Yellow-Legged and Herring had a darker mantle than either parents!

lou salomon · Oct 25, 2007

graham

grahamB said:
Hi Pabs. ...There are certainly examples of this amongst other threads on BF!

but not so many on proven hybrids i guess

grahamB said:
Identifying these gulls seems to be more of an art than a science- and photos do not always allow others to judge easily. Perhaps a DNA profile is the only way of being certain.

howw true. and i like the idea of gullery being an art 3

3

:-O
photos can lie and a set is always better, so i'm not confident about this gull at all i confess - beyond the "feeling" it has much argentatus in it there's a little bit of science to sum up tendential features, -- waiting for mr. jörgensen to exibit his art of knowledge :king:

8-P

CAU · Oct 25, 2007

rmielcarek said:
How common are argentatus Herring Gulls with yellow legs?

Here in the Bristol area argentatus HGs are decidedly scarce, probably only 1 or 2 records a year. With the large local mixed breeding colonies of HG and LBBs hybrids between these 2 species are commoner and, in my experience, often show this bluey tinged mantle colour, odd bart part colouration and an intermediate structure.

Have you got any other pics of it Paul?

Rich M

I have seen mentioned somewhere that in some breeding colonies at the eastern Baltic Sea up to 75% of the (argentatus) Herring Gulls may have yellow legs. In Finland the standard colour of the legs of Herring Gulls is pale flesh-like pink, but yellow-legged individuals are not especially uncommon.

Here are some yellow-legged Herring Gulls from Norway (along with the first set of photos there's also an explanation of the yellow colour):

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/hg/ad_01.php
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/hg/ad_07.php
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/hg/ad_08.php
http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/hg/ad_11.php

In Finland it would probably be extremely hard to get an adult unringed michahellis accepted by the RC (there are no accepted records of adults, about 15 of immatures)...

By the way, are you really able to distinguish argentatus and argenteus Herring Gulls with certainty?

JANJ · Oct 26, 2007

Hello all.

I wonder when Paul,s gull is taken?

If taken recently, retained p10 (?) looks oddly patterned and the gull whether a HG or a YLG - little behind in primary moult. Also bill pattern is odd (if not stained in a strange way). Bill size seems to be on the short side for a YLG while the shape of it could be alright for a (female) YLG. Structure is difficult to judge from one image althoug dumpy with all the weight on the belly area - it could fit either of the two in a stance like this! Upperpart tone looks dark and in this image there´s not so much bluish hue in it that it would be all wrong for a YLG, or a N. argentatus for that matter but exact tone is impossible to judge correctly in images! I find it hard to detect any red in the orbital ring - duller in winter and often wider in front of - and behind the eye in YLG

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/greece01.html

http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/Gull20050723.html

http://www.gull-research.org/ylgadsubad/4cyoct/04cyoct.htm

http://www.gull-research.org/ylgadsubad/adoct/06cyoct.htm

http://www.pbase.com/slisch/yellowlegged_gull

http://www.pbase.com/slisch/herring_gull

A view of the hidden primaries would be fine!

JanJ

pabs · Oct 26, 2007

Hi JanJ,
The photo was taken on 28th September, almost a month ago so may be in fitting with the time you had in mind.
All the pictures I have are similar in pose but will upload some later on this morning.
regards,
Paul

pabs · Oct 26, 2007

I have attached some unedited pictures of the bird which hopefully might make things a little clearer.
Regards,
Paul

Twite · Oct 26, 2007

pabs said:
Many thanks for the comments so far. The bird does have yellow legs. It is clearer on some of the other photos I have. It was wading around in a lot of mud which is why they are not very clear. The bill also has mud on it.
Regards,
Paul

Hi Paul.

I have just looked at the latest pictures, I have noticed that although you say the bill has mud on it, the feathers at the base are spotlessley clean this also applies to the top of the legs which look muddy but the feathers are clean. Could this be a pigmentation thing?

Twite.

pabs · Oct 26, 2007

Hi Twite,
An interesting point you raise about the mud on the bill only. I think this may be the way that the bird feeds ie picking lugs from just millimetres below the surface. The mud it was wading in was very liquid in consistency like a thick soup almost or porridge. I would have expected to see some mud on the birds belly though as I saw the legs 3/4 submerged at times. As far as staining is concerned, I guess it could be possible.
regards,
Paul

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