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Dark-mantled Herring Gull! (1 Viewer)

Binocularface

Binocularface

You've all got one...............!
Hi

The attached Herring Gull images were taken today in Carlisle (UK). I would be interested in any opinions on this bird.
The bird was very dark mantled (darker than Common Gull Larus canus mantle shade). Most features noted are visible in the images attached. Though the leg colour was dull - with a yellowish wash, the legs also appeared marginally longer and more spindly than nearby Herring Gulls. The bird was also smaller than nearby Herring Gull.
I am of the opinion that this bird is a Herring Gull (though I am not sure of what race) or possibly a Herring Gull x ???? hybrid.

Any thoughts?

Regards
Tristan
 

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I'd say it's a herring gull of the race argentatus, which are darker than argenteus. But I may be wrong, wait to see what the others have to say
 
Ronayne88 said:
I'd say it's a herring gull of the race argentatus, which are darker than argenteus. But I may be wrong, wait to see what the others have to say
Click to expand...
Hi Ronayne

You may be right of course, though argentatus tend to be structurally bulkier than this bird. The mantle colour is also darker than I have seen in argentatus. Though i conceed that there is a lot of variation.

Regards
Tristan
 
If as dark as Tristan say´s, argentatus would be a good choice. However argentatus usually have an all white tip to p10, some or a few (?) has a mirror, than usually (?) a larger one, and argenteus has a mirror, though some has an all white tip.
JanJ
 
This bird does seem very dark mantled, however of the very dark mantled argentatus that I have seen in the Edinburgh area, all have shown a lot of white in the primaries.
Thats not to say its not an argentatus though !

Have a look at one such bird I posted in the argetatus/argenteus thread
 
mantle pale looking to be graellsii to me (though of course not the easiest thing to evaluate in pics), legs look pinky also ... I'll plump for argentatus type
 
the build, mantle shade and wingtip patterns appear wrong for Herring of argentatus type

the yellowish wash to leg colour and size smaller than accompanying Herrings is interesting...

gonna think about this a while...

Tim
 
Tim Allwood said:
the build, mantle shade and wingtip patterns appear wrong for Herring of argentatus type

the yellowish wash to leg colour and size smaller than accompanying Herrings is interesting...

gonna think about this a while...

Tim
Click to expand...


Agree. We used to put birds that looked like this down as herring x lesser black-back hybrids on the Thames when they turned up. Which they did with alarming frequency, given the mixed colonies that were in the area. Worth a thought....
 
seen one probable HG x LBB hybrid on the Thames (Rainham) .. mantle was most similar to argentatus to our eyes at the time, also showed very bright bill colours but leg colour was hard to nail and I think we had it down as yellowy-pink (a Jan ad bird if memory serves), small white mirror on P10 ... seen a couple of 'possible' hybrids there also ... watched a mixed pairing (m LBB & f HG) go on to breed and produce 3 hybrid young on the Thames in '98 but of course the young dispersed off and I regret not getting them rung (colour-rung)
 
Hi

Thanks for all the comments so far on this bird. I think that a Herring Gull x Lesser Black-backed gull seems the most plausible identification. In addition to all the features mentioned in previous post (and clearly visible on some of the images) the bird showed a distinct red orbital ring and perhaps less noticable the bird showed a red/orangey gape line.
Although I conceed that subtle colour tones on bare parts can be difficult to assess from images, the legs were dull with a yellow wash (to my eye anyway!) which perhaps further supports the identification of Herring x LBBG?

Regards
Tristan
 
The way I understand it is argentatus is best separated by the amount of white on P10, and the fact that it reaches all the way to the end of the feather. As for structure and colour of the bird, a lone bird only in a photo can't be judged on either!
 
Dougie Preston said:
The way I understand it is argentatus is best separated by the amount of white on P10, and the fact that it reaches all the way to the end of the feather. As for structure and colour of the bird, a lone bird only in a photo can't be judged on either!
Click to expand...
Dougie,

You are quite correct with some of what you say! However I would be very cautious with identifying argentatus on the pattern on p10 alone. I conceed that some features cannot be assessed from a photo of a lone bird, which is why I added features I noted in the field that could not be clearly seen from the images.
Perhaps a good example of why it is useful to take notes as well as pictures!

Atb
Tristan
 
though some argentatus show less white in the wing than others and can equally show mantle colour not that much darker than argenteus (southern birds?) ... as for intergrades, well ...
 
I would agree with Tristan in #17, and that from these images alone, and whitout seing the spread wing for primary pattern, it´s impossible to get a possitive ID.
I noticed the reddish orbital ring, and the slightly yellowish tinge to the legs and the mirror, which taken together does not exclude argentatus. It was mentioned as being darker than common gull, which is 5-6(7) on the Kodak Grey Scale, argentatus is (4)5-7(8) Baltic argentatus is 4,5-6. graellsii is 8-10(11), intermedius 11-13, and heuglini is 8-11.
Although rare, hybrids do occur, but to determine if the subject gull is a hybrid on these images alone would be quite a challenge , not to mention- impossible.
Good reading here:

http://www.surfbirds.com/ID Articles/adriaensgulls1203.html

and this one:

http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20060219061552.jpg
Text to the above gull:

suspected hybrid Lesser Black-backed x Herring Gull, Newfoundland, St. John's Feb. 19, 2006 © Bruce Mactavish

Upperparts a shade darker than Herring Gull, legs pinkish-yellow in life, deep orange orbital ring and broad black bar on P5 are good marks for this in between gull


Edit:
http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=525&show_thumbnails=False

JanJ
 
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