New "mini 4/3s" format cameras (1 Viewer)

Since portability and relative compactness (of both lenses & camera) is more important to me than absolute optical quality, I’d pretty much decided to upgrade to a Olympus 520 (or its then incarnation) in the near to middle future.

However, I now see that Olympus/Panasonic have announced a new ‘mini-4/3’ camera system that promises both less bulky bodies and smaller lenses (no actual cameras yet, but details on most camera websites). It does this by getting rid of the SLRs mirror system which in turn means a different arrangement of lenses/sensor set up. This seems ideal compromise between a good ‘bridge’ camera (I have FZ30) and a full blown SLR, but, since other companies seem loathe to abandon the SLR format, what price do you pay for this novel approach? Further would the different arrangement of sensor and lens make ‘digiscoping’ with such a camera more or less easy than with conventional SLRs?

I realise that, until an actual camera appears, responses to this query must be provisional, but out of curiosity I’d like to have some idea!

John

Well, as far as the sensor itself, the disadvantages would be pretty much the same as with the current Olympus DSLRs like the E-420 and 520. You can read the reviews, but seems to me that the disadvantages are mainly: slightly more noise at high ISOs; somewhat lower dynamic range; a "tunnel-vision" viewer (would not be a factor with mini-4/3). The advantages are potentially smaller cameras, and smaller and cheaper lenses, with greater "crop-factor magnification" (i.e. 2x versus 1.5 or 1.6). Thus, to get a 600mm 35mm equivalent, you can buy a 300mm lens for an E-520, but have to buy a 400mm lens for another brand.

I suppose the more advanced mini 4/3 cameras will have electronic view finders (EVF), as on current super-zooms. I hear some folks bemoaning this, but I believe that the EVF is the wave of the future, regardless of camera size. Eventually (5 years? 10 years?), they will have EVFs that refresh as fast as real life, so there won't be that smearing and time lag you get with current models. Then they'll be able to get rid of that cumbersome and noisy flapping mirror found on SLRs, which surely is an anachronism! I suppose this idea might rock some worlds, just like digital did.

Thanks RAH - the first paragraph is pretty much what I'd assumed. Your comments about EVFs give some confidence too although I'm still puzzled why if, as it seems, getting rid of that bulky mirror is such a good idea, other camera companies aren't falling over themselves to do likewise. Full marks to Panasonic/Olympus to be the first to give it a go,

John

many P&S owners still and never will want to mess with a larger DSLR and the associated equipment and will continue to remain satisfied with them (my wife is one of them) ,, if we could have a small body with a zoom from 8mm up to 300mm with no vignetting, CA, edge softness or distortion, it would become the only camera and lens owned for about 90% of people walking vertical,, I would buy one for sure,,

as the technology continues, the faults of today's cameras will be corrected and forgotten and there will be other issues, unknown at present, users will want resolved,, who knows how many pixels they can cram onto any surface,, in another five years we may see 50mp + small body cameras with an ISO of 100K with in body software handling user presets for full photo processing so you can wire your photos to any printer or over the phone to anyone with no further work,,

as for the elimination of the viewfinder, I like both and really could live with either,, though I doubt we will see any pro level camera removing that prism in the near future,, my Nikon P5000 screen is super quick and I can jump from one subject to another and is focused quicker than my eyes and ready for the next shot,, the newer models have so little streaking (if any) that it is not a problem in following a fast moving subject,,

doing photography now for 50 years and thinking back about what all has been available compared to what we have at present, I love it,,

Derry

I too am looking at the 4/3 mini system very interestedly, as I am in the market for a compact, carry-everywhere system for street and travel photography, where a DSLR is simply too obtrusive.

However, the way I see it, there are a few issues/concerns with the upcoming system:

1/ This new system standardizes a lens mount. That is all very nice, but miniaturizing an SLR-type of camera is a decidedly non-trivial task. Leica has done with the M8, at a cost of $5000 and several non-traditional design choices, and still ended up with something that is not a whole lot smaller than, say, a Rebel 1000D. Sigma took 2 years to do it with a fixed-lens camera (which is simpler to design), and it took numerous designs and redesigns to bring that ergonomic disaster to the market. Take a look at the cut-out of any modern DSLR - every available space is packed with circuitry. Miniaturization should be doable but will require a serious commitment to R&D.

2/ The first-gen bodies will definitely have compromises when it comes to frame rate, buffer size and speed of AF - courtesy initial stages of miniaturization. Now, there is a tradeoff for manufacturers here: spend a lot more in R&D to minimize these compromises, end up with a body costing more and have a smaller target market (pros/serious hobbyists). Make cheaper bodies, make more compromises and go after the entry-level auto-mode-using DSLR crowd who'd happily settle for something smaller and who rarely go beyond kit lenses or, at most, a basic tele.

3/ An EVF is simply not good enough for action, especially in lower light. It doesnt refresh fast enough, it lacks the resolution and ability to see fine detail of an optical finder and lastly, contrast-detection AF is slower than passive AF. You can get away with this on wideangle/short tele, but when you are talking about moving the elements of a big tele, I foresee problems.

I too am following this development keenly. It appears that the commitment is there - now which direction it takes (mass market or serious user) remains to be seen. I'd love for a less-quirky, more practical, better-priced alternative to the M8.

I was planning to get a Rebel 1000D and pair it with a few primes for street shooting, but I am holding of to see what Oly and Panasonic put out. Come up with a Leica-sized body and very compact 24-70 equivalent lenses, and I am all over it.

Vandit

PS: Derry, my TV85 finally arrives in the end of October, a good 4 months later than expected (but I save almost $1400 in postage and customs now). I will rejoin the prime focus photography threads then.

Speaking to an Olympus rep at the bird fair recently he said not to get too excited yet as they will not appear even in prototype form until towards the end of next year.

Vandit,, they are very nice scopes,, doubt I will ever sell mine, just does everything I ask it to do and so well,,

why such a long wait,,???? is the guy rowing the boat over the to ya,,|=(|

has to be tough,,

Derry

Heh, I am having some bring them over. Saves me $350 in shipping and $1000 or so in customs and handling. It is a little longer wait than i would have preferred, but $1400 savings goes towards getting me a 28-300L, so it is worth it

Vandit

vkalia said:

3/ An EVF is simply not good enough for action, especially in lower light. It doesnt refresh fast enough, it lacks the resolution and ability to see fine detail of an optical finder

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Absolutely. And in bright light and in foliage.

I have two cameras with EVF amd I love the lightness and convenience of them, but I hate having to have to guess if the target is in the viewfinder or not.

Nevertheless I am still interested in this new Olympus system. I hope they announce more soon.

Hey guys, I did say that "I believe that the EVF is the wave of the future, regardless of camera size. Eventually (5 years? 10 years?), they will have EVFs that refresh as fast as real life, so there won't be that smearing and time lag you get with current models." I didn't say that day is here now or even very close.

Plus this mini format does seem that it will take several years to really get going, and by that time the EVF will be getting closer to perfection...

RAH said:

Hey guys, I did say that "I believe that the EVF is the wave of the future, regardless of camera size. Eventually (5 years? 10 years?), they will have EVFs that refresh as fast as real life, so there won't be that smearing and time lag you get with current models." I didn't say that day is here now or even very close.

Plus this mini format does seem that it will take several years to really get going, and by that time the EVF will be getting closer to perfection...

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Is there not a potential alternative to the EVF ?

Reflectance / transmission properties of some materials can be changed by applying a charge. We see this in welding masks (which respond instantaneously). It is conceivable (to me) that this technology could be developed to the point where the mechanical mirror (and shutter) could be replaced with a sheet of material whose reflectance was turned on and off - responding far faster than a mechanical system.

If doing that, the mirror could be sealed in, so the mirror could also perform the shutter's function.

Conceivably

Mike.

Olympus E-20 used a fixed prism arrangement diverting part of the light into the viewfinder doing away with the flipping mirror and also one of the options was to effectively electronically switch the sensor on and off not using a mechanical shutter.
Not suitable for the 4/3 sensor and interchangeable lenses (weight and dirt) but it shows that Olympus keep us guessing on how they will solve the challenges facing each new design.

It would be nice if it could be made as small as their PEN FT SLR, but probably impossible to produce today at a reasonable cost.

Not such a long wait see the following for details of the Panasonic G1 -
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091202panasonic_DMC_G1.asp

Since it's a Panasonic, not an Olympus camera, I've started a new thread under the 'Panasonic' forum, John

Well John this shows you cannot trust what Olympus tells you at the Birdfair, they were probably keeping their prototype under wraps until Photokina later this month.

Geoff Brown said:

Well John this shows you cannot trust what Olympus tells you at the Birdfair, they were probably keeping their prototype under wraps until Photokina later this month.

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Well, the G1 is a Panasonic so perhaps he wasn't fibbing just ignorant and talking about a future Olympus mini-4/3,

John

see the new Panny G1 is using LV (electronic view finder) for the actual viewing through the viewfinder in lieu of any prism,, doubt they would be using such a device if any lag or streaking of image is present,,

will be interesting to see how the testing folks take a reading on it,,

they closed that gap quick,,

Derry

Gee, that was quick! I somehow doubt they've completely fixed the slow refresh rate on the EVF, but we shall see (perhaps they have had the better EVF technology for awhile but haven't put it into the super-zoom cameras because of the cost?). IF they can fix the shortcomings on EVFs, the advantages are obvious - smaller, more control (screen can brighten whenever necessary, you can zoom in and out on the screen, etc), no flapping mirror and vibration,etc.

As far as alternatives to EVF, sure, I'm game for anything! Bring it on!

DPreview has a brief note on an Olympus mini-4/3 camera - not at all SLR-like, but it migh be an interesting option for digi-scoping
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08092208olympus_micro_four_thirds.asp

John

I think I'll take a look at this, but wait a wee while for the technology to be well tested in the field and G2 to come and address obvious deficiencies.

Like the G1 a lot better than the Olympus mock-up. I want a viewfinder as you can be much more stable. I want a decent height and width in a body for god grip with my clumsy hands. I don't want too much thickness, and I definitely don't want weight in body or lens.

Roll on ...

Mike.