TV60+adapter+Tring+DSLR-enough to start with? (2 Viewers)

Hello everybody, and Happy New Year!
I'm planning to order some stuff from USA, and should consider it carefully,
so I would be very obliged if anybody gime some info.
2 things are clear for me - Televue TV60 and dslr (Nikon d60 or similar) but the connection between them...
From the information contained in televue.com I understood that their dedicated camera adapter (ACM-1250), being connected to T-ring (which is available anywhere) can serve as connection between TV60 and DSLR body.
and this will give 360mm telephoto lens (7x).
Is this setup enough to start digiscoping? Will I be able to obtain decent photos? Some other options to consider?
I don't really want my setup-to-be be complicated. Just to start with.
Thank you in advance,
Vadim

Hello Televad,
Not a good idea using a T ring on a digital camera especially a Nikon, because you lose most of your connections (auto-focus etc.) Bear in mind due to the cameras sensor you get about a thirdx on a lens. A 200mm becomes a 300mm. Maybe you would be better looking at a suitable lens. A Nikon D80 or D50 would be better as these cameras can use pre digital lenses which are cheaper.
Cheers,
Gez.

Thanks for your reply, Gez,
but I would like to employ TV60 as a spotting scope, since it can serve me for astronomy too. Ok, you say Nikon DSLRs can't work properly with T-ring? Should I look towards other camera? But is the setup itself workable or not?

Gez said:

Hello Televad,
Not a good idea using a T ring on a digital camera especially a Nikon, because you lose most of your connections (auto-focus etc.) Bear in mind due to the cameras sensor you get about a thirdx on a lens. A 200mm becomes a 300mm. Maybe you would be better looking at a suitable lens. A Nikon D80 or D50 would be better as these cameras can use pre digital lenses which are cheaper.
Cheers,
Gez.

Click to expand...

Sorry but I don't agree Gez. A Televue scope makes a fine telephoto manual lens with a DSLR. In fact, the TV line is probably the best there is. Prime focus digiscoping with astro scopes and a DSLR is getting very popular and produces excellent results.

I hesitate to suggest an adapter since my scope is not a Televue but I am sure you can get a proper answer on BirdForum. I suggest you look at this thread:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=100519
Unfortunately it is an extremely long thread but I am sure you will find it quite interesting since it is a complete 101 course on prime focus digiscoping.

If you don't find the answer, I suggest you post your question there as it is monitored by some TV owners.

Good luck
Jules

I think the setup is pretty much the same.

You need a DSLR and a T-mount for it. Then you need 2" extension tubes, in order to ensure that the camera focuses properly (the more the extension, the greater the magnification you get... but you also start losing focus at distance, starting with infinity).

And you need a T-adapter which goes into the focuser of the TV60 and lets you attach this whole setup into the scope.

If the TV60 has a 2" focuser, go for all 2" parts. The link Jules has provided has some good sources for getting all these bits and bobs.

By the time you are done with extensions and barlows, you can probably get close to 1000mm from that setup.

Vandit

One more thing Vandit. If you don't own the TV60 yet, I would suggest you look at 80mm scopes. Most will give you a focal length ot 600mm which is almost twice as much as the TV60. When birding, reach is the name of the game and the starting point is the lens.

I STRONGLY succest you take the time to read the post I suggested. The complete setup is explained in great details with pictures.

Good luck in your purchases
Jules

Thank you, JGobeil and Vkalia!
Yes, the 80mm scope would be much better, the only problem is my friend who will need to drag the stuff from USA (not the TV60 alone).
As for setup, I just can't experiment being here, 15000km from the stores. I need to be determined on something, choose and buy it only once. So far, just as you advised, I found a setup of a man who uses TV60.
What he has: DSLR+T-ring+TV field flattener+extension rings (4or5)+TV60
(the only difference instead of extension rings I want to buy TV camera adapter, which is about 50 mm long).
this setup is extremely fast and sturdy, it gives about 400mm focal length.
I think its only drawback - little magnification (about 8x), but the rest are only pluses.
The above mentioned man gets superb results, his work can be found on televue.com either.
And of course I'll check the thread.

I think you really need to consider this a bit more before you spend any money.

The scope at 360mm isn't going to get you very close to anything beyond around 15m.

If you used the TV Field Flatterer (also known as a focal reducer as it reduces the focal length by 0.8X) you will then end up with a scope with a focal length of only 288mm. The guy you mentioned must be sitting in a hide or something and getting very close to the birds if that is what he's using.

If you do go for the TV60 then I'd forget about the TV field flattener. Field flatteners are mainly used for astro photography to stop stars at the edge of the photo going slightly out of focus. This shouldn't be an issue at all when photographing birds in the day.

Along with the TV60 I'd get a 1.4X teleconverter. The scope is F6 so you are still going to get very decent shutter speeds with a 1.4X teleconverter and it will take the scope to 504mm. This will get you out to around 25m maximum for small birds and a little further for bigger stuff. Something like the Kenko Pro 300 1.4X is ideal, it's the one I use and I love it.

I've worked my way up from short 400mm scopes/home made scopes, then I had a William Optics 480mm and now I have the Skywatcher 600mm. It's only since I've had the 600mm that I've been able to capture birds at any distance. As a guide, for small birds in the 30-50m range you need to be working at around 850-1200mm respectively. On top of that you need a camera that will allow for plenty of cropping while keeping good detail. Something like the D60 wont give this. Needs to be ideally 12million pixels or more, 15million being about right.

Paul.

Vandit, Paul is right - believe me !

In fact, instead of getting that setup, I personnaly would purchase a DSLR with a fixed 300 or 400 mm lens and a 1.4x teleconverter. You would get a stabilized lens and automatic focus as a bonus and about the same magnification. A much better proposition in my opinion.

I think TeleVad has made a great choice based on his criteria. Add a 2.5x Powermate with T-ring adapter and he will have a very versatile kit for digiscoping and widefield astrophotography. Remember, he has to impose upon a friend to bring all this back with him. Needs to be lightweight, and not too costly I think.

Wow guys, now there are so many things to consider! Thank you all!

Paul, the field flattener I was going to buy was discontinued TV ranger field flattener 1.1
so it would give me about 400mm lens- this is what I thought would be a starter point for me. As for Kenko Pro 300 1.4X - I cheked it, but it's a bit beyound my budget.
Your information on distancies - focal lengths relationships is very valuable for me, because it is based on your own experience. And you're right, the DSLR should be 12Mpx, will Canon 450 do the job?

JGobeil, purchasing lens may be good for real birders and photographers, which is not the case, and is very expensive for me; in addition, I'd like to use my equipment for astronomy too.

RJM, I've already considered the option with Powermate, but the only problem I knew little about it. After having studied the info about imaging with barlows/powermates I'm starting to grasp the principle.

So then DSLR+T-ring+Tadapter+Powermate 2.5x+TV60 will give about 900mm and decent field for photo, is that right? The main thing for me is correctness of the setup! I must plan everything so that here, when I'll unpack my boxes, I shouldn't realize that I'm missing some ring or adapter... So sorry for so many questions!

concerning TV60+camera adapter+field flattener 1.1x+T-ring+DSLR
1) is this correct setup? (should it work properly?)
2) field flattener 1.1x converts TV60 to 400mm lens. Isn't it enough to start?
3) what if I shoot with only camera adapter, without field flattener, will I be able to get decent photos in general (this is what televue site suggests, 360mm focal length)?

concerning Powermate:
1) Isn't 900mm focal lenght too much for birding? Do I need any special sturdy mount for this?
2) Do I need that ACM1250 camera adapter or Powermate goes straight into TV60?

Each of you guys has his own experience and setup and preferencies, which is perfectly understandable. If you could take into account my intentions, and if I understood everything you suggest, it would be marvellous.
Phew I tried to be as thorough as I could!
Thanks for your patience guys

Well Tele Vue has just uploaded all their product manuals online. But you could call Tele Vue directly. Hopefully, you could use Skype or some other low cost internet phone system.

For information call between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. ET Monday through Friday: 845 469 4551

The owners, Al and David Nagler will probably answer the phone and talk to you directly.

They are really nice, love to help, and are very patient.

cheers,
Rick

I can't see why you would think the Kenko 1.4X is expensive when you would pay more than double the price for a Powermate. A Powermate isn't going to give any better quality than a good teleconverter and actually is slightly inferior to a teleconverter from tests/comparisons and various other photos that I've seen taken on daytime subjects. Remember that a Powermate is designed to be looked through and taking photos through it secondary to it's main purpose where as a teleconverter is designed purely for photography. Also the 2.5X will be too much unless it is bright sunshine because it will take the scope to f15. On a cloudy day you could still use it but would be resorting to slow speeds, shutter release cable and mirror lock up to get sharp photos. Teleconverters are much more compact and you can vary their distance from the camera to increase magnification which you can't do with a Powermate. A 1.4X teleconverter can go from 1.4X to the 2.5X of a Powermate quite easily making it very versatile. If price is still an issue then I've not seen a photo yet from a Powermate that will beat my $10 converted 2X DOI HQ7 teleconverter.

Yes, the Canon 450D is ideal and I've had no desire to change mine, I'm very happy with it.

For the field flattener with the TV-60, make sure you get the right one as some are designed for the TV-76 and TV-85 and other bigger Televue scopes. Field flatteners are very precise and usually designed for the specific scope they are to be used with. Probably best to check with Televue to see which one can be used with the TV-60. Also ask them if you didn't have a field flattener how much distortion would be apparent with a ccd sensor the size of that in a 450D. The distortion on a full frame sensor is around 65% of the frame and will be less on a smaller sensor like that of a 450D. The large amount of distortion is the main drawback of having to go for a small aperture scope.

Only thing missing from your set up is an extension tube to allow the scope to reach focus from infinity down to a fairly close distance. Check with Televue to see what length they recommend for terrestrial prime focus work where you want to focus from infinity down to around 5m.

Paul.

Paul, I think you are selling the Powermate short. It is a superb optic that works perfectly out of the box with the TV60. It is a bargain for ~US$175, the SAME PRICE as a Kenko Pro 1.4x TC, and it won't need any user modifications to put up great images. Also, adding an extension behind the 2.5x Powermate will actually REDUCE it's magnification. Finally, the TV60 has a close focus of ~4m at its native focal length.

FWIW, I have a Tak FS60 that I use with the Tak 2x Extender or a 2.5x Powermate. It puts out superb images within the limitations of a 6cm aperture. I am confident the TV60 can perform just as well and with more birder "friendly" ergonomics.

cheers,
rick

Not selling it short as I came extremely close to buying one myself. I've just never seen a photo taken with one that can justify the cost or improve image quality compared to much cheaper methods. For visual purposes then I doubt there's anything better but from a photography stand point there's no need to buy it. Kenko pro is $135 on the site I looked at and doesn't need any user modifications so not sure what you meant by that. Plus you aren't tied down to the 2.5X magnification that you aren't going to need the majority of the time. The 1.4X is a very versatile lens and the one I'd use probably 75% of the time.

Yes, adding some extension to the Powermate will bring down it's magnification but even with loads of extension it's still around 2.25X according to their graph on the Televue website. You are basically stuck with just one magnification.

Using just 60mm of extension on the Kenko 1.4X will take it to over 2X without much change to shutter speeds compared to other methods and no loss in quality. Plus more extension equals even more magnification within reason, 120mm being about the most you would need.

Just trying to give Televad the best use of his money.

edit - something else to consider is that the TV60 is only ever going to be any good at close range, maybe 20-25m max so there's no real need to try and push it too much. Even at 900mm (2.5X Powermate) you will be asking a lot to reach beyond 40m. Better to just get closer to the subject with this scope.

Paul.

I'm all for saving money, but he can't use the TC for astronomy (post #3 above).

Rick

RJM said:

I'm all for saving money, but he can't use the TC for astronomy (post #3 above).

Rick

Click to expand...

Only as far as looking through but a TC is still perfectly fine for astro photography. Depending on the level of astronomy that Televad wants to get into then a low price barlow like a 2" ED would probably suffice.

Having said that, the encased lens cell can be removed from an old teleconverter and be used as a very nice barlow lens in conjunction with a telescope eyepiece. Buying a very cheap old 7 element teleconverter on ebay will give a barlow lens of similar quality to that of a much more expensive equivalent, easily as good as my 2" ED or Celestron Ultima Apo. There's many inexpensive ways to get a quality alternative with a little intuition.

Paul.

JGobeil said:

Vandit, Paul is right - believe me !

Click to expand...

I think you mean Televad, Jules - I know better than to disagree with Paul when it comes to matters digiscoping

In fact, instead of getting that setup, I personnaly would purchase a DSLR with a fixed 300 or 400 mm lens and a 1.4x teleconverter. You would get a stabilized lens and automatic focus as a bonus and about the same magnification. A much better proposition in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Yep. For photography, a 400/5.6 or a 100-400 - or even a Sigma 150-500 will be a better option, even compared to a scope that gives 600-800mm of focal length, in terms of total # of keepers obtained. Crop and up-res, if need be. What little one loses in resolution, one gains in versatility and ease of use.

EDIT: I see that the OP also needs the scope for astrophotography. Rules out a lens. However, I would suggest an 80mm scope, if possible. It will not add *that* much more weight and size, and perhaps a few more beers to the friend might do the trick...?

Vandit

Paul Corfield said:

edit - something else to consider is that the TV60 is only ever going to be any good at close range, maybe 20-25m max so there's no real need to try and push it too much. Even at 900mm (2.5X Powermate) you will be asking a lot to reach beyond 40m. Better to just get closer to the subject with this scope.
Paul.

Click to expand...

That is why I started this thread. The simpliest and high quality and not too pricey setup to start with. And I still think 900 mm would be too much for me and this scope.
I'm sure both Kenko and Powermate are good things, but this just not that I wanted to start. Although I've found a lot about things while dealing with you guys! Thank you for enlightening! Nevertheless, there are lots of possibilities, but the most simple still are:

1) TV60+camera adapter+T-ring+DSLR (the setup is suggested by Televue TV60 Operating Guide) which gives 360mm (acc. to manual)

2) TV60+camera adapter+TV Field Flattener 1.1x+T-ring+DSLR (real working setup giving superb results) which gives 396mm

and so on, and so on, more complicated, more expensive, setups with teleconverters, barlows, powermates... which may be excellent, but not now for me.
I just want to try my hand at birding, and if I feel more confident and more experienced, later I may add some stuff, or even buy another scope, (or lens?), why not. I understand this setup will not reach too far, but I'm not going to be a professional as you guys, I just feel like having fun, besides, in my area there are lots of rare birds, and nobody seems to be interested in them at all.
For couple of years I've been observing birds in my binoculars, and always felt sorry I couldn't capture them.
I just can't overcomplicate things now. I need to start from somewhere.
Later I'll comprehend more I hope.
Thank you guys

Televad,, take a look at Astromart for used scopes,, have seen some TV60s there at good prices,,

http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/

will have to join (about $10) but could well be worth the cost in savings,,

another location to watch is Cloudy Nights classifieds,,

http://www.cloudynights.com/classifieds/

for your birding I would question the field flattener/focal reducer added expense,, I have the TV85 and cannot recall when I wish I had one for salvaging any distortion on bird photography at the edge of the lens,,

Derry