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Advice Needed: Victory HT or SF? (1 Viewer)

Steve260 said:
In the end, here is what I went home with:

For everyday use: Leica Ultravid HD 7x42. Clearly the easiest for me to hold steady, with a fairly large FOV. The view through the Leicas was a little "warmer" than the other binoculars - the view was plenty bright, and the colors just seemed a little more saturated. Very attractive view, with no CA that I could observe. Things just "snapped" into focus with these. Fit in my hand very comfortably, and I could use them both with and without my glasses. I could easily imagine watching an entire baseball or football game through these (from the nosebleed seats), without fatiguing my eyes or my arms. A bit pricey, but pretty much the only game in town right now in a 7x42 alpha roof prism design. The tradeoff in magnification for a little steadier and wider view worked for me.

For nature and birding use: Zeiss Victory HT 8x42. While these were not quite as comfortable in my hands as the Leica Ultravids (they are a bit longer), the view was very natural and neutral, and they enabled me to discern details in the wooded/shaded areas a bit more clearly than the others. Not a big difference, but there was a difference to my eyes. (Maybe because I am already used to the view and handling of my Victory HT 10x42s?) No trace of CA, no matter how hard I tried to induce some. Everything about the construction of these screamed quality - very well finished and smooth in operation in every detail. I could hold them steady - not as steady as the 7x42s, but steadier than my 10x42s. Extremely sharp and natural view, and very easy to bring into focus, both with and without my eyeglasses.



Steve
Click to expand...

Steve... I somehow missed this post before and just now read it... Your choices are almost exactly what mine were when I had the chance to look at most of the same models in April. With the exception that I could only purchase one and went with 8x (Ultravid HD) I also felt that it and the HT were the top two.
 
Gijs van Ginkel said:
Hi PHA,
Today I had the opportunity to use a 8x54 HT and it had exactly the same problem and I am quite certain that it is not caused by my eyes, since other binoculars from other brands and also from Zeiss do not show it.
I think that Zeiss should ask the manufacturers of the HT to check it.
Gijs
Click to expand...

Gijs,

From my experience with the 8x54 HT I would say that pupil positioning is so hyper-critical that no single IPD setting will allow both eyes to align well enough with the exit pupils at all distances for a decent image in both eyes. IMO, the image is never completely sharp even with perfect pupil alignment and sharpness quickly worsens with slight pupil de-centering, either from the tremors of handholding or shifting parallax from changing distance.

I haven't tried the 42mm HTs, but I also found pupil centering to be more critical with the 8x32 FL than the larger FL models.

Henry
 
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Steve260 said:
Update:
I spent several very enjoyable hours at Lost Creek Shoe Shop last Friday morning. Anyone in PA, if you haven't been there already, I highly recommend you make a visit!

The store is very low-key and relaxed. Most of the merchandise is high quality outdoor footwear (as expected), but there is a separate room at the back of the shop dedicated to optics, with a covered viewing porch attached. There were probably close to 100 pairs of binoculars in the display cases, as well as a nice selection of spotting scopes, rifle scopes, tripods and accessories. I was assisted by "David" - he was very patient, knowledgeable and helpful. I never felt like he was rushing me in any way, and he brought every binocular on my list out to the porch for me to try. All at the same time, so A-B comparison was very easy. (Zeiss, Swarovski, Leica, Nikon). He answered all my questions, and provided input from his experience as a birdwatcher to help me understand the differences between the various brands and models.

Here are the binoculars I compared:
Zeiss Victory HT 8x42
Zeiss Victory T* FL 8x42
Swarovski EL SV 8.5x42
Swarovski EL SV 8x32
Swarovski SLC 8x42 WB
Leica Ultravid HD 8x42
Leica Ultravid HD 7x42
Nikon EG 8x42


The outdoor viewing area is well set up, with a variety of targets and viewing conditions. There are actually two formal "targets" set up at about 100 yards and about 175 yards (if my memory is correct - the distances may have been a little different?). These targets had various text in different sizes, in combinations of red, white and blue. Very useful in evaluating how steady I could hold the binoculars to read the text! In addition, the viewing area is fenced in, with two small white metal roof structures out approximately 75 yards or so. The fence posts were very useful in comparing FOV, and the vertical and horizontal fence wire provided a good variety of targets for evaluating sharpness and potential CA. It was a bright sunny morning, and the edges of the white metal roof structures were also very helpful in looking for any CA issues and comparing depth of field. Inside the fenced in areas were several goats and turkeys, which cooperated nicely in helping me to evaluate colors and detail resolution. Finally, the farthest "target" was positioned in a shaded wooded area, which allowed me to compare how well each binocular could see "into the shadows".

After several hours of evaluation and comparison, I ended up actually purchasing two pairs of binoculars! One for general everyday use, trips, sporting events, concerts, etc., and another for more dedicated nature & birdwatching use. I am a novice birdwatcher, but I enjoy going out early in the morning, so brightness in low-light conditions was definitely a factor in my evaluation.

Everything I tried was "alpha" class optics, so the differences between the various brands and models were small - they were all extremely good, in my opinion. I can certainly provide detailed opinions of the differences I perceived between the various models, most of which were subjective, so your-mileage-may-vary! (grin)

In the end, here is what I went home with:

For everyday use: Leica Ultravid HD 7x42. Clearly the easiest for me to hold steady, with a fairly large FOV. The view through the Leicas was a little "warmer" than the other binoculars - the view was plenty bright, and the colors just seemed a little more saturated. Very attractive view, with no CA that I could observe. Things just "snapped" into focus with these. Fit in my hand very comfortably, and I could use them both with and without my glasses. I could easily imagine watching an entire baseball or football game through these (from the nosebleed seats), without fatiguing my eyes or my arms. A bit pricey, but pretty much the only game in town right now in a 7x42 alpha roof prism design. The tradeoff in magnification for a little steadier and wider view worked for me.

For nature and birding use: Zeiss Victory HT 8x42. While these were not quite as comfortable in my hands as the Leica Ultravids (they are a bit longer), the view was very natural and neutral, and they enabled me to discern details in the wooded/shaded areas a bit more clearly than the others. Not a big difference, but there was a difference to my eyes. (Maybe because I am already used to the view and handling of my Victory HT 10x42s?) No trace of CA, no matter how hard I tried to induce some. Everything about the construction of these screamed quality - very well finished and smooth in operation in every detail. I could hold them steady - not as steady as the 7x42s, but steadier than my 10x42s. Extremely sharp and natural view, and very easy to bring into focus, both with and without my eyeglasses.

For now, I am very happy with my choices, and will likely plan another trip to Lost Creek when the Zeiss SFs are released and available. I'm sure the new Zeiss SFs will be outstanding - I would like to compare them separately against the Swarovski EL SVs when the SFs are released, readily available, and any potential initial "issues" are taken care of (not expecting any, but can't know for sure until they are released to the market.)

Thanks again to everyone for your advice and input! I would be happy to provide additional impressions or answer any questions based on my recent experiences...

Steve
Click to expand...

Hi Steve, Here is one picture I took at LCSS showing distance of the target that is the longest distance.158 yds. Funny I never tried the Leica binoculars.
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=109828&d=1192754799
Lost Creek Shop used to have a USAF 1951 Resolution chart out as well at shorter distance.
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=109827&d=1192754763

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=1030646&postcount=3

The last time I was there I tried the 10s , but only bought boots.;)
 
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Gijs van Ginkel said:
Dear all,
I received a Victory HT 8x42 HT on loan for a two week investigation in the field. The optical quality is very good as well as the handling comfort.
Points that were disturbing to me were:
-1- the quality of the eyecups. The turning resistance was low and one of them continuously dropped a little when in use because of the low turning resistance, which was annoying
-2- upon correction between the optical strength between both eyes the focus was identical at the chosen distance for both eyes. However, when I changed observation distance the focus for both eyes did not remain identical and I had to correct it all te time when I switched observation distance. I had the same in the past with the 8x32 Victory FL. I checked other brands like Leica, and Swsarovski and I did not observe that phenomen with the roofs of these brands.
-3- I found the raincover, which is supplied with the Ht not very convenient, but in the past (and may at present still?)Zeiss sold a very nice solid rubber cap and that worked convenient.
Despite these "shortcomings"I liked the HT.
Gijs
Click to expand...

I had the same diopter issue with my first sample 8x32 LX, which I had to keep resetting the diopter at different distances, the focuser tension was also very loose. Holger reported the same issue with his Conquest HD (I hope I got the right bin this time). I think he said it was due the internal focuser elements not moving in synch with each other. The diopter on my second sample Nikon 8x32 LX worked better, though the focuser was still too fast for my taste.

It's amazing that even on top models you find "floppy" eyecups. This issue goes from entry level bins to the top of the line. I would assume that they HTs have a metal housing underneath the rubber eyecups? If so, peel back the rubber at the base of the eyecup and look to see if any of the tiny metal screws that hold the metal housing together are loose, that was the case with my Vixen 7x50 Foresta.

Brock
 
Gijs van Ginkel said:
Torview,
For The Netherlands Nikon is a non option becuase of its very bad service level and because of its price policy regarding binoculars in connection with the photography shops.
Gijs van Ginkel
Click to expand...

Gijs, what do you mean with non option because of its price policy regarding binoculars in connection with the photography shops? Prices of the Nikon EDG are dropping under the 1200 euro in the Netherlands now. Is that bad?
 
Steve's impressions were pretty much identical to mine in using the 10x SFs for three days in the field. The focus is ever so easy to use in general near-to-far birding, and when I was looking at nearby insects, it took a bit extra to get close enough, but going from bush to bush tracking different butterflies was very simple, and not much effort at all to switch back to distant birds. In panning, I never once noticed any rolling sensation--something I am usually sensitive to. The brightness and the field of view were thrilling.

The main binoculars I've been using are the 8x32 FLs and the 10x Terras, but I didn't bring any binoculars along for comparisons. I've never looked through the HTs, and have spent minimal time checking out the EDGs or most recent Swarovskis.

Zeiss was very clear that the "smart focus" had to do with the design and positioning. And they were also clear that they plan to keep both the HTs and the SFs. They said the suite of features that birders prioritize are somewhat different from the features hunters do--especially hunters in northern Europe where low light conditions are so prevalent, and they want people to look to Zeiss for the best of the best whether they're looking for the incredible brightness hunters need or the many features birders want.

I'm no optics expert--I just know what works for my 62-year-old eyes--so I'm thrilled that people who are more knowledgeable than I are seeing what I saw.
 
Sybo, post 85,
I could answer you in Dutch, but for the other readers it will be more polite to do in in English.
-1- The profit margin Nikon offers to binocular shops is very low, since photography shops often can sell the Nikon binoculars for the price they have to pay to Nikon before they can even sell one, so the binocular shops can hardly earn a penny by selling Nikon binoculars. You can verify this by talking to Jan van Daalen from House of Outdoor in Maarsen and most likely also at the binocular shop of Vogelbescherming Nederland in Zeist.
-2- The service level of Nikon in The Netherlands (and also in Belgium) is of a level that drops the users immediately in an deep depression: in short it is very bad.
This is the reason that one sees very few Nikon binoculars in Dutch binocular shops. It is a pity, since Nikon makes some beautiful instruments.
Gijs
 
Gijs van Ginkel said:
Sybo, post 85,
I could answer you in Dutch, but for the other readers it will be more polite to do in in English.
-1- The profit margin Nikon offers to binocular shops is very low, since photography shops often can sell the Nikon binoculars for the price they have to pay to Nikon before they can even sell one, so the binocular shops can hardly earn a penny by selling Nikon binoculars. You can verify this by talking to Jan van Daalen from House of Outdoor in Maarsen and most likely also at the binocular shop of Vogelbescherming Nederland in Zeist.
-2- The service level of Nikon in The Netherlands (and also in Belgium) is of a level that drops the users immediately in an deep depression: in short it is very bad.
This is the reason that one sees very few Nikon binoculars in Dutch binocular shops. It is a pity, since Nikon makes some beautiful instruments.
Gijs
Click to expand...

Gijs, so it looks like that it is mostly bad for the retailer. For the buyer it is great that the retailer has to sell its product so very cheap and about the service level: that is also more a problem for the retailer, because according to the Dutch law it is the retailer who is responsible for the aftersale services and not the manufacturer.
Yes, if nobody sells any more the Nikon binoculars than the buyer might have a problem, but there are still plenty of places in the Netherlands where you can buy Nikon binoculars.
And a new 8x32 EDG for 1125 euro and a 7x42 EDG for 1200 euro isn't bad, is it? Certainly not compared to the prices of Swarovski, Leica and Zeiss. And I suppose that the prices of the Nikons will still further dropping, like they did before with the Nikon HGL's.
 
Steve260 said:
For everyday use: Leica Ultravid HD 7x42. Clearly the easiest for me to hold steady, with a fairly large FOV. The view through the Leicas was a little "warmer" than the other binoculars - the view was plenty bright, and the colors just seemed a little more saturated. Very attractive view, with no CA that I could observe. Things just "snapped" into focus with these. Fit in my hand very comfortably, and I could use them both with and without my glasses. I could easily imagine watching an entire baseball or football game through these (from the nosebleed seats), without fatiguing my eyes or my arms. A bit pricey, but pretty much the only game in town right now in a 7x42 alpha roof prism design. The trade off in magnification for a little steadier and wider view worked for me.

For nature and birding use: Zeiss Victory HT 8x42. While these were not quite as comfortable in my hands as the Leica Ultravids (they are a bit longer), the view was very natural and neutral, and they enabled me to discern details in the wooded/shaded areas a bit more clearly than the others. Not a big difference, but there was a difference to my eyes. (Maybe because I am already used to the view and handling of my Victory HT 10x42s?) No trace of CA, no matter how hard I tried to induce some. Everything about the construction of these screamed quality - very well finished and smooth in operation in every detail. I could hold them steady - not as steady as the 7x42s, but steadier than my 10x42s. Extremely sharp and natural view, and very easy to bring into focus, both with and without my eyeglasses.Steve
Click to expand...

When I bought the Leica 7x42 Hd I came to the same conclusion as you. I compared them with the Zeiss 7x42 FL and 8x42 HT, Swarovski 8x32, Kite Ibis ED 7x42 and 8x42 and the Leica 8x42 HD.
The Swarovski made me feel sick, the Kite's gave me a tunnel vision and the hinge was too loose, the Zeiss had too much glare.
The binoculars that stand out where the Leica 7x42 and the Zeiss 8x42 HT. Optically the Zeiss was a bit better, they were certainly brighter while looking in deep shadow and glare control was better. But I preferred the Leica for it's relaxing view and better ergonomics. However I cannot use them without my glasses, I have about -7 and that is too much for the Leica.

Having said that, now I find myself in love with an old and ugly pair of binoculars, the B&L 7x26. Optically the Leica beats them easily, but they fit perfectly in my hands, are so easy to hold steady(almost like a Canon with stabiliser), feather light (I sometimes forget that I wear them) and on top of that the nice 3D view.
 
Last edited:
Sybo,
This is not the place to discuss Nikon, since place it is directed to compare the performances of the HT versus the SF from Zeiss. The whole matter about Nikon has been discussed before in other threads and we better keep it there.
By the way.you probably know that the Dutch Bird Fair will take place on August 23 and 24 so we will have plenty of opportunities to compare the Zeiss HT's and SF's with each other and with binoculars of other brands.
Gijs
 
sybo said:
Gijs, so it looks like that it is mostly bad for the retailer. For the buyer it is great that the retailer has to sell its product so very cheap and about the service level: that is also more a problem for the retailer, because according to the Dutch law it is the retailer who is responsible for the aftersale services and not the manufacturer.
Yes, if nobody sells any more the Nikon binoculars than the buyer might have a problem, but there are still plenty of places in the Netherlands where you can buy Nikon binoculars.
And a new 8x32 EDG for 1125 euro and a 7x42 EDG for 1200 euro isn't bad, is it? Certainly not compared to the prices of Swarovski, Leica and Zeiss. And I suppose that the prices of the Nikons will still further dropping, like they did before with the Nikon HGL's.
Click to expand...

Probably the prices will drop even more since the Nikon distributor for the outdoors sales channel (who has to pay the same purchage price as the big photo shops pay Nikon) has offered me their complete stock last friday since they have decided to end up the relationship with Nikon.
BTW: I kindly refused after I phoned with Nikon Europe and a nice lady told me that Nikon would deliver the outdoors channel but the delivery costs will be 50,00 euro's per shipment.
Is Nikon to be taken serious??B :)

Jan
 
mooreorless said:
Hi Steve, Here is one picture I took at LCSS showing distance of the target that is the longest distance.158 yds. Funny I never tried the Leica binoculars.
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=109828&d=1192754799
Lost Creek Shop used to have a USAF 1951 Resolution chart out as well at shorter distance.
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=109827&d=1192754763

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=1030646&postcount=3

The last time I was there I tried the 10s , but only bought boots.;)
Click to expand...


Thanks Steve! I couldn't remember how far away the targets were... I didn't see the USAF resolution chart when I was there (it could have been there, and I just wasn't looking for it?)

Since the weather is getting cooler here earlier than usual, we might see an early fall, which means a trip to Hawk Mountain might be a good idea in September this year. I wonder if I can convince my wife that I need to back to Lost Creek to get a new pair of hiking boots? Wouldn't want to sprain an ankle hiking up the mountain trail, would I? Of course, I would also HAVE to spend some time checking out optics while at Lost Creek, right? (grin)

Steve
 
David in NC said:
Steve... I somehow missed this post before and just now read it... Your choices are almost exactly what mine were when I had the chance to look at most of the same models in April. With the exception that I could only purchase one and went with 8x (Ultravid HD) I also felt that it and the HT were the top two.
Click to expand...

David,
I have an old pair of 8x42 BA Trinovids, and they are very good (if a bit dated in design). The 8x42 Ultravid HDs are quite an upgrade from the older Trinovid BAs, and the view through them was outstanding. If I did not have such a binocular addiction, and had to restrict myself to one pair for all-around use, I probably would have chosen the Ultravid HD 8x42s.

The main reason I selected the Zeiss Victory HTs was that they let me see a little bit further into the shadows, and the resolution of the small print on the viewing targets was ever-so-slightly clearer to my eyes. Since my house backs up to a wooded area, I wanted just that little bit extra dawn and twilight penetration to locate the birds making all that racket!

Even though the current Leica line may seem a bit "dated" when compared to the recent Zeiss, Swarovski and Nikon releases, IMHO there is just something about the Leica "feel and view" that is very pleasing. Like putting on a pair of well broken-in shoes or boots - they have a very familiar and comfortable fit, both ergonomically and optically. Very easy to like!:t:

Steve
 
Steve260 said:
Thanks Steve! I couldn't remember how far away the targets were... I didn't see the USAF resolution chart when I was there (it could have been there, and I just wasn't looking for it?)

Since the weather is getting cooler here earlier than usual, we might see an early fall, which means a trip to Hawk Mountain might be a good idea in September this year. I wonder if I can convince my wife that I need to back to Lost Creek to get a new pair of hiking boots? Wouldn't want to sprain an ankle hiking up the mountain trail, would I? Of course, I would also HAVE to spend some time checking out optics while at Lost Creek, right? (grin)

Steve
Click to expand...


Steve:

The Lost Creek shop looks to be a nice place to visit, and thanks to
Steve for photos over the years.

The boot excuse is a good one, I like it. ;)

This thread is about the Victory SF or the HT, and so just to stay on
topic, last week, I was able to handle a 10x42 HT at a sporting goods
store. This was only a short time with the binocular and only with a
quick view outside a window. So that means no way to evaluate the
optics, but I found a nice, quality Zeiss build.

The one issue I will mention about the HT is that I had to focus with
my middle finger when focusing. This is the only binocular that I
can say that about. I suppose it is something that you can get used to
but for those using the HT, is it an issue, for me it is a concern ?


For those that handled the HT and the new SF, do you use the
middle finger with the SF, or the index finger as you do with the
other open frame models ?

So that means for anyone thinking about a new Zeiss at the highest
level, be sure to check one out, to see if it works for you. Try before you buy.

Jerry
 
NDhunter said:
The one issue I will mention about the HT is that I had to focus with my middle finger when focusing. This is the only binocular that I can say that about. I suppose it is something that you can get used to but for those using the HT, is it an issue, for me it is a concern?
Click to expand...

Jerry, I found this picture on the interwebs. Is this not how you were holding it?
 

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cnick6 said:
Jerry, I found this picture on the interwebs. Is this not how you were holding it?
Click to expand...

No, I found the focuser of the HT is placed lower than most, so the index finger was too high for me. It naturally came to hand using the middle
finger.

Jerry
 
I had a pair of HT's for a little over two weeks and finally sent them back for just that reason, While the vir=ew was absolutely fantastic I just could not get used to focusing with my middle finger or grabbing them too far down the barrels to use my index finger. I just wasn't going to pay that price and have to adapt to them.
Steve
 
Stephen Mark said:
I had a pair of HT's for a little over two weeks and finally sent them back for just that reason, While the vir=ew was absolutely fantastic I just could not get used to focusing with my middle finger or grabbing them too far down the barrels to use my index finger. I just wasn't going to pay that price and have to adapt to them.
Steve
Click to expand...

Steve:

This binocular has been out for quite a while, and this post of mine today,
has brought out some similar thoughts.

The newly designed Zeiss Conquest HD and Terra both fit me very well.
I like both of them and recommend them at their price point.

Jerry
 
Steve260 said:
Thanks Steve! I couldn't remember how far away the targets were... I didn't see the USAF resolution chart when I was there (it could have been there, and I just wasn't looking for it?)

Since the weather is getting cooler here earlier than usual, we might see an early fall, which means a trip to Hawk Mountain might be a good idea in September this year. I wonder if I can convince my wife that I need to back to Lost Creek to get a new pair of hiking boots? Wouldn't want to sprain an ankle hiking up the mountain trail, would I? Of course, I would also HAVE to spend some time checking out optics while at Lost Creek, right? (grin)

Steve
Click to expand...

I am glad I could help! Yes by all means you need those hiking boots. LCSS is about 35 miles from my place. The resolution chart is no longer there, I think the weather got to it. I didn't post a link to my trip/trips to the shop before.

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=1030646&postcount=3

Now I am not sure if that shop is 35 or 46 miles from my place.
 
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