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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

8x42 FL is here (1 Viewer)

Me and my big mouth. Well, the Bavarian region has plenty of my money now, so maybe I'll try a Chinese bin next and see what all the fuss is about! NOT like the Chinese don't have plenty of my money too, from most everything else in the house! Just a couple of notes on my ongoing acquaintance with the new FL. I've said too much already, and promise that this one more lengthy post is "it"!

Yesterday, I did a centerfield resolution test comparing it to my Trinovid BA, booted to 64x. Weather limited my setup space, so the period of my finest target was a rather fat 3.4 arcsec. The target was alternating black and white stripes, running in four directions. Both barrels of both binoculars could discern which way all the lines ran, but there were differences in the quality of the view. The left barrel was better in both binoculars, and handled the target easily, but the Leica was a tad better. The right barrel of the Zeiss was a little bit worse on three directions, but still handled those three directions easily, but the fourth direction was worse, and I could tell which way the lines ran, but barely, so, some astigmatism there. The right barrel of the Leica was also worse than the left, but not much, and without astigmatism. Overall, the Leica was the close winner. By only barely getting the worst direction in the right barrel, I believe that barrel of the Zeiss could be said to be "resolve" 3.4 arcsec, and all the other barrels were better. Although not well quantified, I believe this is about medium resolution quality for an alpha binocular, the Leica a bit better than average, comments please optics buffs.

Today I took both out on a hillside and and compared views in all kinds of realistic lighting situations, looking at distant pine needles, roots in dark holes under trees, perched vultures against brilliant white clouds, and some things that I frankly never could make out what the heck they were. I sat, with elbows braced on knees, and paid attention to field correction, depth of field, focusing action, and visible detail midfield.

I see what many users mean now about the FL having a small truly sharp field. Just perceptible falloff begins very close to the center, perhaps only a tenth of the way from center to edge. The Leica is about twice as good, in this regard, and even then gets worse more slowly than the Zeiss. Even at the edge, however, the FL is far from terrible, plenty good to locate motion with the periferal vision. But curbing one's tendency to gaze around the field is key to feeling comfortable with it.

There was no difference between the two in DOF, but in a way it seems shallow in the Zeiss because the focus is incredibly fast. The most used range of 30 ft to infinity was covered by the Zeiss in less than 90 deg of rotation, compared to the about 160 deg of the Leica. It works in the FL, though, because the focus knob is perfectly smooth and without any backlash. But still, that will take some getting used to, I am still overdoing it and having to come back. I suppose that is the penalty for the close focus capability.

Under almost every lighting circumstance, and on almost every target, the Zeiss most definitely showed more detail than the Leica. This was surprising. I was actually considering sending it back and staying true to the Leica, with its comfy wide field and forgiving, if unsmooth, focus. I expected the FL to make things "easier" to see, or to have a sharper "look", and that's true, but its optical superiority is in fact practically realized. I verifed this time and time again, back and forth, and it was impressive. From the above tests, this is not due to better "resolution", so must be due to the brighter, cleaner, color-free image.

I have also been out looking for birds a bunch, and oh man does it nail them.

In summary of my first few days of considerable use, the 8x42 Fl takes some getting used to, field and focus wise. With its narrow sweet spot, it would not be a good choice for occasions where you want to just kick back and enjoy the view of a landscape, without trying to eek out every last bit of detail. But it a wicked birding tool. The fast focus, once mastered, should enable one to deal with the worst surprises, no extra crank while the bird disappears. And the optical power is like a laser beam. I am willing to put up with some difficulty for that. I have one more day of the trial period, and I'm thinking I'll keep it. And, I'll shut up!
Ron
 
I care not what binocular anybody chooses. I have a problem with people who talk on one hand about experiencing equipment, and on the other hand denigrating something without using it. That makes me a bit "touchy". It has nothing to do with your bias against something you have no experience with.

Now John Traynor on the other hand has tried both. He prefers the FL. I am not going to argue with that sort of a comparative viewpoint.
You are obviously a huge advocate for ZR and that's good. Everybody has their own tastes and own reasoning for owning whatever goods they want. But the truth is that I have tried HD Chinese bins.... And no they were not the ZR but of the same caliber and they were not the same quality of the alphas.... Just look at your own thread were people were complaining about simple things like objective covers not fitting correctly and the printing being different. Things like the logo falling off.... These are quality issues and if you have them on the surface what do you think lays beneath? I guarentee you its not a Zeiss! So go ahead and be upset with me but the truth is they are not at a level that rivals the alphas! There is a lot more to a bin than just the level of the view. I have had 60 year old Zeiss that felt as solid as a new pair and the quality of the alphas keeps going up! No logos falling off there! Just a world of difference in build quality but why am I trying to convince you... You already have your mind made up right!
 
Ron I really enjoy your posts! They are quite informative and a pleasure to read your take on the two bins.... I need to get up there to Los Alamos and we can pit the FL's against the SE's.... It should be a fun match up :bounce:
 
You don't sound as convinced as you did in the earlier posts. You think you will keep them? It is a lot of money if you don´t feel totally satisfied. There are options.. :)

M I have one more day of the trial period, and I'm thinking I'll keep it. And, I'll shut up!
Ron
 
Sancho,
Let's go to the source. It all started with that Irish Priest (what ever his name was?) and that Leather Row Boat of his.:h?:
Bob

I hang my head in shame, Bob. And he managed to shift the blame onto poor old Christopher, too...
 
You are obviously a huge advocate for ZR and that's good. ... You already have your mind made up right!

I do have a pretty definite opinion of the ZEN ED, Promaster ELX ED, and Atlas ED binoculars. That is that for what they cost, the image does indeed rival the image of the alpha class in many respects. That opinion was formed and subsequently reinforced by comparing side by side to as many alphas as I could. Zeiss FL, Leica Ultravid, Swarovski EL, and Steiner XP.

You started out in disbelief of any possibility of the quality of these from the first post you made here, and despite not trying a ZEN ED, you are still telling people not to hold their breath expecting anything from them. So just whose mind is made up here?
 
Kristoffer,
I am convinced that the FL is not a perfect binocular, but isn't that bound to happen as the new toy syndrome fades away? Here we have another set of compromises, but a new set. My wife's Swaro EL is more intuitive to use, and the wide flat field is something to behold, but its color error is quite noticeable and bothers me. I have seen Nikon SEs, and they are great, with field correction at least as good as the Swaros, but I am not comfortable without waterproofing, the SEs too exhibit color error, and I prefer the streamlined roof shape. I have not tried the new Leica HD, nor heard much about it, but I suspect it might sit in between the FL and the EL as to field and color correction.

If I sound less convinced, it is mainly that I jumped out of new toy mode into hardass mode with the FL. I don't think I'm under any illusions as to overall perfection now, but the hypercritical mode confirmed its astounding central view quality. Having seen this, I don't want to give it up.
Ron
 
Kristoffer,
I am convinced that the FL is not a perfect binocular, but isn't that bound to happen as the new toy syndrome fades away? Here we have another set of compromises, but a new set. My wife's Swaro EL is more intuitive to use, and the wide flat field is something to behold, but its color error is quite noticeable and bothers me. I have seen Nikon SEs, and they are great, with field correction at least as good as the Swaros, but I am not comfortable without waterproofing, the SEs too exhibit color error, and I prefer the streamlined roof shape. I have not tried the new Leica HD, nor heard much about it, but I suspect it might sit in between the FL and the EL as to field and color correction.

If I sound less convinced, it is mainly that I jumped out of new toy mode into hardass mode with the FL. I don't think I'm under any illusions as to overall perfection now, but the hypercritical mode confirmed its astounding central view quality. Having seen this, I don't want to give it up.
Ron
Ron, I know I oughtn´t ask this because the answer will make me miserable, but can you elaborate a little on what you mean by "colour error" in the EL´s? Is it a bias towards pale/blue shades? Ta,
 
Sancho,
No, I call that color bias, and I must not be sensitive to that, I've never noticed it.

I was talking about "lateral color", the fringes of yellow-green or purple that appear along high contrast edges, like a telephone pole with a bright cloudy background. Arguably, any view with obvious color fringing is a bad view anyway, dew to glare, backlighting, etc., so it really isn't a significant optical defect. Some lucky people can't see it, most people don't let it bother them. Smart birders don't look at the edges of telephone poles, unless there's a woodpecker on it. Then there are the sickos like me.
Ron
 
Sancho,
No, I call that color bias, and I must not be sensitive to that, I've never noticed it.

I was talking about "lateral color", the fringes of yellow-green or purple that appear along high contrast edges, like a telephone pole with a bright cloudy background. Arguably, any view with obvious color fringing is a bad view anyway, dew to glare, backlighting, etc., so it really isn't a significant optical defect. Some lucky people can't see it, most people don't let it bother them. Smart birders don't look at the edges of telephone poles, unless there's a woodpecker on it. Then there are the sickos like me.
Ron
Thanks Ron. Yes, I see that to some extent in pretty much all my binos, especially along a horizon if it´s in the upper or lower part of the field. I´m of the "doesn´t bother me...too much...." variety. Are the FL´s free of it?
 
Overall, the Leica was the close winner. By only barely getting the worst direction in the right barrel, I believe that barrel of the Zeiss could be said to be "resolve" 3.4 arcsec, and all the other barrels were better. Although not well quantified, I believe this is about medium resolution quality for an alpha binocular, the Leica a bit better than average, comments please optics buffs.

Ron,

I don't see any problem with resolution measurements like these. I consider anything better than about 3.8-4 arcsec to be good enough for a 42mm binocular. Of course I prefer 3 arc sec just for that proud and happy owner sensation even if I know it doesn't matter. For me the alarm bell goes off around 4-4.5 arcsec and I get the sick feeling that I just paid too much for a piece of junk around 5 arcsec. Bad measurements like that are still better than eyesight at 8x, but they indicate poor optics saved only by low magnification.

Astigmatism is not a good thing, but it's probably limited to just the outside part of the objective, so you may never see any effect in daylight. You might try measuring the resolution again with a 30mm stopdown mask to see if it goes away and also try comparing the barrels in low enough light to use the full aperture to see if you notice any difference between them.

Henry
 
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Sancho,
Yes the FL is free from it over a reasonable area of the midfield. But it has other issues, of course.

Henry,
Thanks for the feedback.
 
Yes, Sancho, the FL's are free of it, and it definitely makes for a cleaner image whatever other issues may be. You'll be buying the new Swaros, needn't worry :) I tested a pair of 8x42 FL's once that showed CA, however, and didn't buy 'em. My 10x32's are great, with limitations, but less astigmatism than the bigger siblings and very clean, sharp image.
 
Ron,

I don't see any problem with resolution measurements like these. I consider anything better than about 3.8-4 arcsec to be good enough for a 42mm binocular. Of course I prefer 3 arc sec just for that proud and happy owner sensation even if I know it doesn't matter. For me the alarm bell goes off around 4-4.5 arcsec and I get the sick feeling that I just paid too much for a piece of junk around 5 arcsec. Bad measurements like that are still better than eyesight at 8x, but they indicate poor optics saved only by low magnification.

Astigmatism is not a good thing, but it's probably limited to just the outside part of the objective, so you may never see any effect in daylight. You might try measuring the resolution again with a 30mm stopdown mask to see if it goes away and also try comparing the barrels in low enough light to use the full aperture to see if you notice any difference between them.

Henry

Henry, has anyone put together a list showing all the top bins and their score on a resolution test?
 
Henry, has anyone put together a list showing all the top bins and their score on a resolution test?

The short answer is no, but really there is so much variation from one specimen to another of the same binocular model that a list like that could be very misleading. Not to mention it would inevitably lead to pointless pissing contests over differences of a fraction of an arcsec. I don't worry about the raw number too much unless it's poor enough to indicate a defect or a bad design.

IMO, star testing (with magnification boosted just as you would for measuring resolution) is much more informative and easier to do. Just set up an artificial star next to the resolution chart. A poor resolution measurement can only indicate that some unknown thing is wrong. A star test will usually reveal what that thing is.

Henry
 
The short answer is no, but really there is so much variation from one specimen to another of the same binocular model that a list like that could be very misleading. Not to mention it would inevitably lead to pointless pissing contests over differences of a fraction of an arcsec. I don't worry about the raw number too much unless it's poor enough to indicate a defect or a bad design.

IMO, star testing (with magnification boosted just as you would for measuring resolution) is much more informative and easier to do. Just set up an artificial star next to the resolution chart. A poor resolution measurement can only indicate that some unknown thing is wrong. A star test will usually reveal what that thing is.

Henry

I can think of one optics expert who revels in "pissing contests over differences of a fraction of an arcsec".

It's amusing to watch the "Clash of the Minutia Titans" for a bit, but then I get bored as the equations or technical arguments become convoluted and move onto to a more interesting thread.

Living in the boonies, it's rare when I've had the opportunity to compare two samples of the same bin at a store, though thanks to friends I've met on forums with similar tastes in bins, I have had such opportunities on several occasions (mostly with Nikon bins).

The series that I found to be the most consistent is the Nikon SE series. Almost every sample I've tried (two 8x32s, three 10x42s, three 12x50s) felt like I was looking through the same binoculars.

Only the newer sample "Premier 8x32 SE" deviated from the norm with a larger image scale.

When it came to the Nikon LX series (six samples), EII series (four samples), Monarchs (two samples), Action Extremes (three samples), Swift Ultralites (original series - three samples) and Audubon 804s (four samples), and Celestron Ultimas (three samples), there were sample variations, sometimes slight, sometimes considerable.

I can usually tell if one sample is "sharper" than another (contrast + resolution) just by holding it up to my eyes and observing various targets.

And sometimes, even when the samples were close in apparent sharpness, something else was "off" (collimation? turned down edges? pinched optics?) that only revealed itself with star testing.

For some reason, my eyes/brain are more sensitive to deviations from the norm than others, particularly with miscollimation.

I'm also more sensitive to "distortions" such as "rolling ball," pincushion, astigmatism, spherical aberration, etc.

My focus accommodation ain't what it used to be either, so I pick up on field curvature and differences in depth of field and close focus more easily. I also see CA where others don't.

Sometimes the variations are mechanical, not optical. Focusers in particular seem to vary in speed and amount of backlash.

So all this makes me very picky.

I've sent at least a half dozen bins back to their owners or stores because they were in someway below par.

It's one thing if the only problem is miscollimation, and I get a really good deal on a premium bin, it's worth sending the bin in to be collimated.

I wish I could do this myself and save money, but not all prisms are as easy to access as Obies, then again, not all bins need to be realigned as often as Obies :). And I'm nervous about messing with the prisms of an expensive bin.

As you pointed out, "star tests" usually tell the tale. But what I lament is that when you fork over a small fortune for a premium bin, part of that fortune should include the manufacturer paying strict attention to quality control.

So when you receive those second tier Japanese-made roofs which retail for $700-$900 and find that one or more of the elements in one barrel were not properly coated at the factory or that one has a focuser that's so loose you can almost spin it, that's very frustrating, even if you bought it for below retail, particularly when the seller doesn't see what you do and gives you a hard time taking the bins back.

But such is the plight of the binofan with champagne taste and a Coca Cola wallet. You look for bargains, and cross your fingers.

If I had a wallet to match my tastes, I would simply walk into an optics store and take out several samples of the same bin, test them with my resolution chart, booster, and artificial star and buy the best sample at retail price (or below retail, since I didn't get that fat wallet by being a fool :).

I hope to do that at least once in my life. That's the "good life".

Brock, the Bargain Hunter
 
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