• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

PFOV concept (1 Viewer)

LS,

I see what you are saying in reference to your last comment. Assuming an individual can actually see the full field of view of a given model then a binocular with a larger apparent field of view (smaller annulus to use your term) gives the impression of a larger perceived field of view.

Frank,

I'm sorry, but you still don't know what I'm trying to say. The greater AFOV does NOT bear a linear to resemblance to either the PFOV or the width of the compound annulus (elkcub's terminology)

The huge diameter of the Fieldscope eyepieces mean that although the AFOV is 72 degrees, the wide physical rim/annulus obscures more of the peripheral visual field than a sleeker, cone-shaped would. Anyway, their great AFOV is a great contribution to their walk-in view.

As an opposite, the Fury 6.5x with the 56 degree AFOV also has a very "open" image, provided the eyecups are collapsed and you're using them at the ideal distance (my image #5).

The Zeiss does have a much greater AFOV but not to the level of the Fieldscope eyepieces. However, the compound annulus, while still slightly thicker than the Fury's, is further out in the periphery thanks to the wide AFOV. And the annulus is thinner than the Fieldscope's.

/L
 
I understand what you are saying but without a 6.5x32 Fury on hand to compare I am having a difficult time agreeing (at least in my mind) with what you are saying. My past experiences tend to tell me that when magnification is fixed then a larger apparent field of view binocular tends to have a smaller annulus (assuming annulus is referring to the black area outside of the field stop) in comparison to a narrower apparent field model.
 
Sorry to interject a simplistic observation into a discussion that is way over my head. But for me, eyeglasses + eye cups down = good, no eyeglasses + eye cups out = bad.

Bruce
 
Sorry to interject a simplistic observation into a discussion that is way over my head. But for me, eyeglasses + eye cups down = good, no eyeglasses + eye cups out = bad.

Bruce

Truth be told that's sort of what I was thinking too. But I figured...that's too simple...I must be missing something. Except for the fact that most non eye glass wearers need the eye cups out to avoid blackout etc. I suppose this boils down to a more detailed, or technical explanation of why it is we need proper eye relief, and what we see when we don't have that. Or what we might see as we are getting closer to proper ER. Anyway, with Looksharp's emphatic "Huereka!" explanation at the end here, it off to the start of the thread and read more slowly this time. Good thread.
 
Last edited:
Good thread.

Thanx Steve, I think I've made the final effort and played out every aspect. Sad to say, somewhat messy explanations and repeats may obscure (!) my ability to deliver crisp and easily digestable tuition on PFOV.
Oh, and there was the mother-tongue too 8-P...

Anyway, I sort of feel this an important issue to better understand why we like or dislike certain binoculars.
Ed/elkcub's participation has also been valuable and encouraging.

/L
 
If you have 20-20 vision, would you still get the same positive effect by using your binoculars with a pair of glasses in which the lenses haven't any prescription ? Does that make any sense ?

Bruce
 
If you have 20-20 vision, would you still get the same positive effect by using your binoculars with a pair of glasses in which the lenses haven't any prescription ? Does that make any sense ?

Bruce

Yes, when the spectacles rest on the eyecups you have to collapse them and the PFOV expands dramatically.
I think I'd prefer 1-2 mm less eye relief on the Fury because I can barely touch the eyecups with my glasses before there are black-outs, so I have to keep them in front of me with a little gap. Without spectacles, that gap is 2/3 inch wide..

Same with the Zeiss FL when used without spectacles. The image shake of the unsupported 10x makes the luxury of a PFOV-enhancing gap contra-productive, so unfortunately I have to raise the eyecups a couple of millimeters.
 
Last edited:
Sorry to interject a simplistic observation into a discussion that is way over my head. But for me, eyeglasses + eye cups down = good, no eyeglasses + eye cups out = bad.

Bruce

Ok this has been a long day and I have a meeting to go to tonight so I undoubtedly need to think this through some. But if Bruce's post above is correct, then the question becomes "why do we need eye cups"?

Would his post also not be correct then if he had said... "But for me, eyeglasses + eye cups down = good, no eyeglasses + [I]eye cups down =good[/I].

I'll go look for my dunce cap and await my fate now.
 
Hi Steve

On the Fury, I lightly touch the eye cups to my glasses. On the Minox Porro I push hard enough to set the glasses back a little. I think you could get by without the cups, but I get a good bit of stability from being direct coupled to them. For some reason, I can't get a sharp image on the right side with any binocular without my glasses on. With them on, sharp as a tack. If I could be without the glasses, I would love to use the winged eye guards on all of my binos.

Bruce
 
I have to have eye cups and I need them fully extended while braced under my eyebrows or I get kidney beaning and even worse as the eye cups get shorter and ultimately fully closed.

And I need to brace them under my eyebrows. That way when I move my head the binocular moves with it. I can't understand how people use binoculars just holding them away from their eyes.

I've been trying to use binoculars with the eye cups in their various down positions as illustrated in the threads here (and even without the eyecups on my Swarovskis) while holding them away from my eyes and I really can't see any wider or better FOV. I really don't understand this concept of being "immersed" in the view and not seeing any tunnel.
I have never used a binocular that did not have this "tunnel" effect in it's view.

Maybe I don't understand the explanations or maybe I am doing something wrong.

Bob
 
Last edited:
Eyeglasses as an optimal interface device

If you have 20-20 vision, would you still get the same positive effect by using your binoculars with a pair of glasses in which the lenses haven't any prescription ? Does that make any sense ?

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

I believe so. It does make sense. The reason it might seem a bit odd is that we traditionally use eyeglasses either to improve vision, or to protect it (e.g., safety glasses, shooting glasses, sunglasses, etc.), but not to act as a preferred interface for visual instruments. Mostly, they are thought of as an annoyance to be dealt with in some way or another. Your question, however, provides a segway into a fundamental issue: What is the optimal way to interface the human eye with binoculars for the purposes of birding? (I limit this to birding for the simple reason that military and astronomy uses place very different demands on the user, and, therefore, need to be addressed within their own frameworks.)

All binoculars have a fixed "eye point," which is located some distance away from the ocular. To obtain an optimal retinal image through the instrument the pupil should be placed at the same distance as the eye point, and parallel to eye lens. So much for optics design. There are no principles that address how the pupil should be placed at the eye point! Nor are there design principles that address either the perceptual or behavioral aspects of "the view" that results from varied approaches.

Convention dictates that all binoculars are equipped with eyecups of some sort, e.g., hard phenolic, soft rubber, or extendable tubes. These all at least partially occlude side light, which many believe is necessarily beneficial. But for a variety of reasons this may not be completely true, as we are now slowly coming to discover that an unmagnified periphery added to the magnified center may have important benefits for psychological "immersion" and birding task performance.

Getting to the practical, one might deliberately buy non-prescription clear optical glasses to supplement birding, of course, but a relatively new technology provides the potential for reaching a higher level of human-system integration: transition lenses. These little beauties darken in proportion to the ambient light and appear to do a very effective job optimizing the amount of light presented to the retina, — which fixed density sunglasses do not. To my experience they can be used effortlessly with binoculars, which I assume would also be true without a prescription. In other words, this technology may provide the ideal adaptive sunglass that seamlessly supports birding applications.

This discussion branches off into the area of sunglass effectiveness for vision, which I've been looking into on and off, but won't comment much about at this point. The evidence I have seen, though, supports the thesis that transition eyeglasses, fit to allow proper eye point placement, can definitely enhance the joys of birding. What I used to think of as a disadvantage having glasses turns out to be a bonus.

Maybe //LS has some professional thoughts on the subject.

Ed
 
Last edited:
The idea with the PFOV concept wasn't to add confusion or look for something that is not a problem to you.
On the contrary, the idea is to complement the AFOV factor. I hope it's clear that I regard the 56° AFOV Fury very walk-in despite the modest AFOV.

Thus, the goal is as follows:

1) To show that certain binoculars can deliver a much more "open" view than could be expected from the calculated AFOV

2) To find another of the not-so-apparent like/dislike factors that sometimes influence the decision.

Ed,

personally I'm not very fond of photochromic spectacle lenses. Eyen the grey ones seem to distort the colors to me. But that's just another example we are all different and have different preferences.

//L
 
Thanks Ed

Using my eyeglasses makes a bigger difference in view for me than the differences in optics themselves. The only other thing I know of that gives another huge step up in optimization is either a monopod or a tripod, but with the obvious limitations in mobility.

Bruce





Hi Bruce,

I believe so. It does make sense. The reason it might seem a bit odd is that we traditionally use eyeglasses either to improve vision, or to protect it (e.g., safety glasses, shooting glasses, sunglasses, etc.), but not to act as a preferred interface for visual instruments. Mostly, they are thought of as an annoyance to be dealt with in some way or another. Your question, however, provides a segway into a fundamental issue: What is the optimal way to interface the human eye with binoculars for the purposes of birding? (I limit this to birding for the simple reason that military and astronomy uses place very different demands on the user, and, therefore, need to be addressed within their own frameworks.)

All binoculars have a fixed "eye point," which is located some distance away from the ocular. To obtain an optimal retinal image through the instrument the pupil should be placed at the same distance as the eye point, and parallel to eye lens. So much for optics design. There are no principles that address how the pupil should be placed at the eye point! Nor are there design principles that address either the perceptual or behavioral aspects of "the view" that results from varied approaches.

Convention dictates that all binoculars are equipped with eyecups of some sort, e.g., hard phenolic, soft rubber, or extendable tubes. These all at least partially occlude side light, which many believe is necessarily beneficial. But for a variety of reasons this may not be completely true, as we are now slowly coming to discover that an unmagnified periphery added to the magnified center may have important benefits for psychological "immersion" and birding task performance.

Getting to the practical, one might deliberately buy non-prescription clear optical glasses to supplement birding, of course, but a relatively new technology provides the potential for reaching a higher level of human-system integration: transition lenses. These little beauties darken in proportion to the ambient light and appear to do a very effective job optimizing the amount of light presented to the retina, — which fixed density sunglasses do not. To my experience they can be used effortlessly with binoculars, which I assume would also be true without a prescription. In other words, this technology may provide the ideal adaptive sunglass that seamlessly supports birding applications.

This discussion branches off into the area of sunglass effectiveness for vision, which I've been looking into on and off, but won't comment much about at this point. The evidence I have seen, though, supports the thesis that transition eyeglasses, fit to allow proper eye point placement, can definitely enhance the joys of birding. What I used to think of as a disadvantage having glasses turns out to be a bonus.

Maybe //LS has some professional thoughts on the subject.

Ed
 
Thanks Ed

Using my eyeglasses makes a bigger difference in view for me than the differences in optics themselves. The only other thing I know of that gives another huge step up in optimization is either a monopod or a tripod, but with the obvious limitations in mobility.

Bruce

Bruce,

We agree again. I use a shooting stick modified for the binoculars to perch on top. But it only works well with binoculars that have chubby tubes. Shown below is the most recent adaptation for my new 8x42 SLC HD.

//LS.

I don't think PFOV will have much utility for folks who don't use corrective eyeglasses. If they happen to like photochromatic lenses I can testify that it all works out very nicely. I've got a birding friend who says the same thing, and he surprised me by also using progressive lenses. (Those things drive me crazy.) Neither of us are even aware of the change in lens darkness and the view seems appropriately bright under a wide range of ambient conditions. For me, it's much better than before I used glasses, because of the wide perceived field and also the controlled illumination. IMHO, the combined technology is amazing.

Fixed density sunglasses often present a problem: one second you need them and the next you don't — a real nuisance. I'm willing to bet that most non-eyeglass users would simply take them off, eyestrain or not, rather than fool around with PFOV. So the availability of non-prescription photochromatic (transition) sunglasses would be an idea, although I'm not aware that they are currently marketed.

Me thinks I've gone as far as I can on this topic. Starting to sound like a salesman.

Regards,
Ed
 

Attachments

  • P1020032.jpg
    P1020032.jpg
    51.4 KB · Views: 39
Last edited:
Bruce,

We agree again. I use a shooting stick modified for the binoculars to perch on top. But it only works well with binoculars that have chubby tubes. Shown below is the most recent adaptation for my new 8x42 SLC HD.

//LS.

I don't think PFOV will have much utility for folks who don't use corrective eyeglasses. If they happen to like polychromatic lenses I can testify that it all works out very nicely. I've got a birding friend who says the same thing, and he surprised me by also using progressive lenses. (Those things drive me crazy.) Neither of us are even aware of the change in lens darkness and the view seems appropriately bright under a wide range of ambient conditions. For me, it's much better than before I used glasses, because of the wide perceived field and also the controlled illumination. IMHO, the combined technology is amazing.

Fixed density sunglasses often present a problem: one second you need them and the next you don't — a real nuisance. I'm willing to bet that most non-eyeglass users would simply take them off, eyestrain or not, rather than fool around with PFOV. So the availability of non-prescription polychromatic (transition) sunglasses would be an idea, although I'm not aware that they are currently marketed.

Me thinks I've gone as far as I can on this topic. Starting to sound like a salesman.

Regards,
Ed

Ed:
This is an interesting topic, and here is another thing that goes along with your sunglasses wants and needs.
I have several pairs of Serengeti sunglasses, both regular and polarized, that are "photochromic" and do
change to some degree with changing light levels.
Sunglasses can play with light and colors to a large degree, and when used with binoculars can be interesting indeed.
For myself, I don't use glasses when viewing, and I also do not care for using sunglasses either.

I am posting a link, and click on "technology", you can move the lens around
to see how it changes the view.

http://www.serengeti-eyewear.com/main.aspx

Jerry
 
Last edited:
Hi Bruce,
Convention dictates that all binoculars are equipped with eyecups of some sort, e.g., hard phenolic, soft rubber, or extendable tubes. These all at least partially occlude side light, which many believe is necessarily beneficial. But for a variety of reasons this may not be completely true, as we are now slowly coming to discover that an unmagnified periphery added to the magnified center may have important benefits for psychological "immersion" and birding task performance.
Ed

Using binoculars with the eyecups collapsed and with no spectacles is not very convenient because the support to prevent hand-shake effects is lost, and blackouts are likely to occur. But like you write, the peripheral vision adds to the birding performance.

It's easier to keep the binocular in front of the eyes for longer time, and you'll find speedy warblers more easy.
The total exclusion of peripheral vision that happens with the eyecups extended makes these things harder.
Imagine a situation where you use a camera through a hole in a black blanket rather than the ordinary way. It's a lot harder to find the object, right?

EDIT: And I agree with you, Ed, and with bh46118
 
...

I am posting a link, and click on "technology", you can move the lens around
to see how it changes the view.

http://www.serengeti-eyewear.com/main.aspx

Jerry

Very interesting. Im glad to hear there's more than one manufacturer of photochromatic. These appear to be non-prescription sunglasses? The stuff I use is called "transition", and it may have more neutral color bias, ... at least the gray ones. This is my second pair and the responsiveness has improved a great deal. Take a look. You might want to use eyeglasses while birding after all. ;)
http://en-us.transitions.com/en/default.aspx?gclid=CMnvndbL360CFQ5lhwodyCoHCQ

Thanks for starting this thread //LS. :t:

Ed
 
Last edited:
Warning! This thread is more than 12 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top