'Odd' Golden Plover i.d. help please. (1 Viewer)

CJW · Oct 29, 2003

All,
I’ve just been watching a strange Golden Plover sp. During my lunch break and was wondering what your thoughts were:
Same size as Eurasian Golden Plover - didn’t appear ‘slim’, but then, like the rest of the flock it was ‘fluffed up’ (it’s very cold out there today!)
Distinctly capped appearance with a very white supercillium, which appeared to extend across the bird’s forehead (although it was slightly more ‘buffy’ at this point)
Generally paler than EGP but still with a golden cast to the mantle and scapulars – sort of part way between Grey Plover and EGP in overall appearance.
The wings appeared long – certainly extending beyond the tail – but, possibly because of the bird’s hunched/fluffed posture, not appearing particularly attenuated.
I’ve got a couple of (poor) photos, which I will post later when I can download them onto my PC (I’m writing this in work).
Is there anything in the above, brief description that can confirm/refute what I am obviously suspecting?
Thanks,
Chris

Edward woodwood · Oct 29, 2003

Hi Chris
sounds like it may be agp but need more detail really. Axillaries or call would help. Guess the longer legs etc are not really apparent in the cold today. Smaller gold-green spots too so looks darker
look forward to pix

Michael Frankis · Oct 29, 2003

Hi Chris,

Not sure if it helps at all but a few years ago there was a leucistic EGP at St Mary's (Northumbs) for 4 or 5 consecutive winters, which came close to this description, except for the perhaps longer primaries of your bird (tho' EGP 1aries do extend slightly beyond). It certainly had a strong supercilium and often caused alarm for unwary birders!

I've never heard of EGP x GreyP hybrids, a theoretical possibility but highly unlikely.

Michael

CJW · Oct 29, 2003

Yeah, I'm just annoyed that I was on a limited time budget and had to get back to work. On reflection, I doubt we'll be able to do anything with it, as the light conditions were atrocious and it's quite windy and the bird was distant.......here come the excuses in advance!
I'll post the pictures (however bad) at around 6.45pm.

CJW · Oct 29, 2003

Well here they are - actually there's only one that might be worth posting. I've shown it from a wide angle, to give comparison with the EGPs and a close up of it from the same shot. Sorry about the quality, but I was shooting at (ISO400 for the photographers amongst you), I've tried to sharpen it, but I don't think it's achieved much.

Michael Frankis · Oct 29, 2003

C'mon Chris, that's a CURLEW !!! 3

Actually that bird at the Curlew's tail look very like the leucistic EGP that used to winter at St Mary's - I reckon that's what it is

Michael

CJW · Oct 29, 2003

I think you're probably right Michael. Still looks a bit long-winged though. Nevermind, it's interesting eh?

Jane Turner · Oct 29, 2003

Interesting indeed! It does look long a little long- winged for EGP as in projection beyond the tertials....But is actually a little too Gold on top for Juv AMG and its also a bit clean underneath isn't it. My understanding is that the largest AMG overlap with EGP too. Did it look at all leggy? You can't tell in the photo!

The head looks very AMG!

I'd defintely say ......hmm not sure.

How common is localised leucisism?

CJW · Oct 29, 2003

In all honesty Jane, I had zero time to study it (I was already late back from lunch), it did sort of stand out from the crowd of EGPs though, which is why I took the photo. The head is spot on for AGP......so is the primary projection......

Darrell Clegg · Oct 29, 2003

Hi CJ - all I can say is I'm glad you found it, and not me!

Darrell

CJW · Oct 29, 2003

Yes, but if you had Darrell, what would you have thought?

Jane Turner · Oct 29, 2003

I'd have edged closer and not felt to guilty if it had raised its wings. I think that if you had told us it had grey auxilliaries we'd all be lining up to prove it was AGP.

CJW · Oct 29, 2003

Sorry Jane, not my style.

christineredgate · Oct 29, 2003

So was the bird a Curlew after all?.The beak did not seem very long?
Christine

CJW · Oct 29, 2003

Michael was trying to be funny Christine - the bird in question is the one just to the left and in front of the sleeping Curlew. I don't think there's been a definitive answer yet.

christineredgate · Oct 29, 2003

Thanks CJ,

Received your message before it has reached this thread I think.

I fall for it every time,3

.One of these days,!!,no more said:h?:

Christine.

Michael Frankis · Oct 29, 2003

Hi Chris,

I'm still for leucistic EGP. As already pointed out, it isn't black enough above for AGP, the gold feather fringes are too broad. Also (which hasn't been mentioned yet) the tibia (leg above the ankle joint) is short, same as on the other EGPs in the pic; AGP stands out with its longer tibia.

Of the head pattern, I've seen quite a lot of EGP with supercilia getting close to this prominent, there's usually one or two** in the 2-3,000 strong St Mary's flock that I WeBS count regularly. Finally, the head & bill look normal size for EGP, the AGPs I've seen had noticeably daintier head & bill than accompanying EGPs.

**Yes, every time I see one, I always get a rush of adrenalin, only for it to fade 'yet another dang pale-superciliummed EGP' :-C

Michael

Edward woodwood · Oct 29, 2003

can't disagree with that Michael
much too 'gold' above for me - saw a similar bird the other week at Burnham Norton

Darrell Clegg · Oct 30, 2003

Chris, I really wouldn't want to commit - it seems to show features of both. As Jane says, that head is VERY AGP, and the primaries look long - I don't suppose you counted did you - 3 or 4? At least I can see it's not a Pacific!! the tertials are not long enough for that, but they may be long enough for American GP, I can't see where the tail is. Structurally it is also distinctly slighter than the EGP's accompanying it, but it does look a little heavy for AGP. The 'golden' colour is not what I'm used to in juv AGP but I don't think I've ever seen one this late, so maybe moult is a stage further and this is accounting for it. The breast looks quite clean - again an AGP feature.
My advice is to take the day off and go find it again!!

Darrell

CJW · Oct 30, 2003

Michael Frankis said:
Hi Chris,

Also (which hasn't been mentioned yet) the tibia (leg above the ankle joint) is short, same as on the other EGPs in the pic; AGP stands out with its longer tibia.

Of the head pattern, I've seen quite a lot of EGP with supercilia getting close to this prominent,

Michael

I'm not disagreeing with you Michael.
However, judging the leg length from the photo is a very dodgy thing to do given that you can't see the knee joint on the right leg and the left leg may well extend beyond the belly feathering.
You also seem to be ignoring the length of the exposed primaries (which are also foreshortened due to the angle of viewing).
People have also mentioned that it is too yellow above, which I mentioned in the original post, but AGP can still show this caste-ing. http://www.surfbirds.com/media/Photos/AmGoldenPlover1-ph-171001.jpg
So, I'm not just concerned by the pale super, I too have seen several EGPs with good supers.

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