EDG85 - no match for my ED82.. ;) (1 Viewer)

The Kingfisher · Sep 3, 2012

I compared my Nikon ED82 with the EDG85 at Falsterbo Bird Show the other day..

Compared with my ED82 the EDG85 had clearly better contrast. An impressive contrast indeed! I could also see that the fixed 30x eyepiece had better edge sharpness than my 30xDS. The colors were slightly more neutral..and when it comes to cromatic aberration, I got the feeling that it was less present in the EDG than in the ED82 (but I never looked specifically for this phenomenon). The fov of the EDG zoom was obviously wider than the fov of the zoom which is attached to my ED82. BUT..

..the Nikon EDG85 is no perfect scope. Quite far from being perfect according to me actually. It's big, it's heavy, it's not very good looking, has a fairly stiff zoom and the focus wheel is placed too far away from the birdwatcher. Okay, I could live with these shortcomings if only the scope had performed better with the zoom set at high magnifications..but it did not.

My ED82 was undoubtedly sharper, clearer and more comfortable at 60x magnification than the EDG85 was at the same magnification!

One of the guys in the "Nikon stables" agreed that there was no doubt that my copy of ED82 was better at high magnifications than their EDG85 was. And then, one must remember that it is possible to increase the magnification another 15x (to 75x) on ED82 to see even more details!

We tried to shift the zoom eyepiece to another EDG85 copy, but the result was the same - my ED82 was also clearly better than the second copy of EDG85 at high magnifications (ie up to 60x). The "Nikon man" now tried to put on another copy of the zoom eyepiece. The image/sharpness became slightly better, but still no match for my ED82!

The conclusion for me is that I will not "upgrade" my ED82 to an EDG85.
Incredible contrast and fine optics in many ways, but the scope has (as I see it) to many shortcomings. And when the risk seems relatively high to get hold of a copy that does not perform as well at high magnifications as my copy of the ED82..than it´s not worth to order one!

So now I'll just enjoy the ED82 - a fantastic optical instrument if you ask me! |=)|

The Kingfisher · Sep 4, 2012

I can also say that I got the same result when I compared the ED82 to the new Zeiss Diascope 85 with 20-75x zoom for some month ago. No match for the ED82 at high magnifications that time either. I thought THAT copy of the Diascope was a lemon - but after have compared my ED82 with two copys of the EDG85 I no longer think so. Everything was probably all right with the Zeiss after all!

CthIngo · Sep 4, 2012

Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

I'm a happy ED82 owner too, never had a chance to test an EDG, but now I don't even want to |:d|

mayoayo · Sep 4, 2012

The ED82 is a proven design!...And I would think one of the most consistent in the quality of the image, seems like most units are just excellent..But yeah..More modern AR Multicoatings are one of the points that optics manufacture have definitely improved,..and contrast and color rendition are better this days..
With the EDG ,Nikon Seemed to put their efforts, in creating a scope that was excellent for Photographic Use, Or at least I have gotten that impression reading some comments in the Forum---I think Forum member Horokuru,a dedicated Nikon User,and very well aquainted with both models,made some comments in that direction...--

I do own a Kowa 823 ,of the same generation than the ED82,and although impressive at high power, Contrast and glare control could definitely be improved...I use the Nikon Fieldscope 27x-40x-50X Eyepiece exclusively on the Kowa ,by the way (42x)... I wonder how the EDG ZOom would perform in the Kowa or the ED28,though!..

looksharp65 · Sep 4, 2012

Kingfisher,

then we were at least two ED82A owners in Falsterbo this weekend. I also saw a lady with a non-ED Fieldscope IIIA. I'm the guy with the bike and carriage. Sunday morning I wheeled north and in the evening I jumped on the train in Ängelholm.

I never bothered to look through the EDG scopes since I'm extremely satisfied with my ED82A. But the EDG 7x42 was the sweetest binocular I've ever looked through. The Victory FL 7x42 was a HUGE disappointment. The 8x32 Conquest HD was quite nice, though.
Anyway, I spent more time birding and less time in the optical supplier's stands and I think that's some kind of a healthy sign.
Saw the Lesser Spotted Eagle and the two White Storks.

//L

mikefreiberg · Sep 4, 2012

I have also found the ED82 to be a great scope. One of my favorites. However, I must add that the larger ocular on the eyepiece of the EDG 85 is far more ergonomic in most situations, I think. I am definitely seeing improved resolution and less aberration with my EDG 85mm. Nevertheless, it is always good to hear reviews both good and bad of all Nikon products.

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean when you say the focus wheel is too far away? The scope is a smidge longer than the ED82 but the wheel design is the same concept. Also, the wheel is larger than in the ED82. This makes it easier to grab for me. Just food for thought! Have fun with your ED82.

All the best,
Mike Freiberg
Nikon Birding Market Specialist

Jason Bugay Reyes · Sep 5, 2012

Yup I found the focusing wheel on my EDG85 is better than the ED82 which I owned for few years and both utilized same fast focus, one of the factor why I love with Nikon scope so much !

The Kingfisher · Sep 7, 2012

mikefreiberg said:
Just out of curiosity, what do you mean when you say the focus wheel is too far away? The scope is a smidge longer than the ED82 but the wheel design is the same concept. Also, the wheel is larger than in the ED82. This makes it easier to grab for me. Just food for thought! Have fun with your ED82.

All the best,
Mike Freiberg
Nikon Birding Market Specialist

What I meant was that the focus wheel is positioned too far forward on the scope body so that you are forced to stretch out your arm more than what you need to do on the Nikon ED82. I often rest my arm for long periods on the focus wheel while I am focusing/birding.

Do this little test: tilt your arm as you do in armwrestling (if you know what I mean), and hold it in that position for about 30 seconds. Now position your hand further away from you so that the angle between your forearm and your upper arm gets greater. Hold the arm in that position for 30 seconds. What felt most comfortable and which felt hardest? Then imagine that you would be birding so for several hours and not just for 30 seconds..

Please do the test with both arms simultaneously to more easily determine which one feels the best!

kwikstaart · Sep 7, 2012

Thanks Kingfisher for sharing your comparison. I have had the Nikon ED82A for about 2 years and was very satisfied with it. The 30x DS was used 99% of the time. Now I have switched to the Kowa TSN 883 but it's true: for the money the ED82 is a real winner!

I think you have to compare the setups with the eyepiece you use most of the time. For me it's the 30x. And with that one all the tests are the same: the EDG85 is a clear winner, on par with the Kowa (still known as one of, or maybe, THE best scope now.

You are right that the EDG is a heavy kit but I don't know how this feels in the field, walking 10 miles. In the advertisement of the EDG it boosts it's streamlined design. So maybe the extra weight is meant to keep it stable? I'm curious though why it's heavy, maybe Mike Freiberg could comment on this?

But, to make it short: if you use your scope primarily with a 30x then the EDG85 is the winner within Nikon's scope offers.

The Kingfisher · Sep 7, 2012

kwikstaart said:
But, to make it short: if you use your scope primarily with a 30x then the EDG85 is the winner within Nikon's scope offers.

Yes, the 30X on the EDG85 was very very nice. The combination had a fantastic contrast and the eye-piece it self had clearly better edge sharpness than the 30X DS on my ED82. But that alone is not enough to make it worth changing for me. At least not when you have to compromise on several other properties. And especially not when a test you do shows that the 25-75x zoom is sharper and clearer than the new zoom at high magnifications (+ that you can zoom up additional 15x with the old one).

One lemon it´s OK, but two lemons of the EDG scope AND two lemons of the 20-60x zoom at the same bird show is not acceptable according to me. And if they not were lemons..well, then must my copy of the ED82 be extraordinarily good! :t:

Gijs van Ginkel · Sep 7, 2012

Kwikstaart,
I am surprised by your statement that the Kowa 883 might be the best scope available now. The Dutch Bird Protection Society stopped selling it, since the colour reproduction is far from right as shown by eye, photographically and from the shape of the transmission spectra. Moreover, the service for these scopes in The Netherlands is below the required standards as I also found out from different shopkeepers. As far as optical quality is concerned, the Kowa scopes are certainly not better than the Leica and Swarovski telescopes.The Nikon EDG 85 certainly is not a scope to buy, because of its very low level of user comfort and, what is also important, the high price and the very low service level for these scopes, certainly in The Netherlands and in Belgium. A number of large scope dealers in those countries even do not want to sell these scopes for that reason. Another problem is that photography shops get larger discounts so they can sell the Nikon scopes for lower prices than shops that deal with binoculars and telescopes only.

kwikstaart · Sep 8, 2012

Well Gijs, you surprise me as well

The original posting concerned about the quality of the image but now you add price and quality of service. But... for price: I don't mind whether I buy my scope at a specialised shop or at a camerashop. Both the Kowa and the Nikon can be bought for a way lower price (the Nikon EDG with 20-60x for less than € 1900!!) than the Swaro's or Leica.

Now for image quality: Although your own test (http://www.europa.com/~telscope/temp/Ginkel.2009.Investigation.telescopes.pdf) is already a bit older, it shows that the Kowa is still an attractive package. The tests of another respected tester (http://tvwg.nl/) show that as well the Nikon EDG as te Kowa TSN 883 are very, very good. In lower lights this tester claims that the Kowa shows more detail in low lights... In view of all the tests on the internet it seems to me that you are the only one who is not very entusiastic about the Kowa... But let's be clear: Swaro is one of the best and Leica could be that as well.

And if you mention other brands you also have to tell that the new Zeiss Diascope is a disappointment and hardly sells. It's true though that Swarovski has the very best service but I've heard of some hickups as well recently. Nikon sends it's optics to Germany for repairs and it seems to be good service but below the warranty and service in the USA. This can still not be said of Leica (please see this forum). The service of Kowa is not on par with Swarovski.

I'm not sure what your reference scope but I'm quite sure it's Swarovski. Your admiration (and it IS an extremely good scope or bin) kind of seeps through every test. That the Dutch Bird Protection agency stops selling Kowa due to service is new to me but I also tend to believe that they want to sell their own products (by the way for extremely high prices, even after the 10% membership discount).

One of these days binomania.it will disclose their test of the Kowa, I'm very curious. My guts tell me they will support Kowa.....

Kind regards,
Marijn Hoogteijling (and yes I do own a Kowa TNS 883

and a Nikon EDG 8x42 for a few reasons: lower prices, I don't want to look like everybody else, they are extremely good products both kwown from birding experience as from many tests and they do not put so much effort in hunting as Swaro or Zeiss).

Gijs van Ginkel · Sep 8, 2012

Kwikstaart/Marijn,
I am not attached to any brand especially and I do not use a reference scope, but if you look at the transmission data at 500 nm, that is at the optimum sensitiviy of the eye at low light levels, two telescopes score very high: the Nikon EDG85 and the Swarovski ATM80HD. The Kowa 883 telescope scores in that spectral region as one of the lowest of the telescopes I have investigated. From the point of optical physics it must therfore be impossible that Kowa scores higher then any of the other telescopes at low light levels, that has nothing to do with liking a telescope or not. So Jan Meijerink has some explanation to do to clarify his observations. I find the Kowa a nice telescope, but compared to the other ones tested it scores lower on different points like colour reproduction and image brightness (cave: at identical exit pupils). As far as the Nikon EDG 8x42 is concerned: the ones I have seen are of excellent quality, so I can congratulate you with it. Unfortunately I see them seldom in a shop, so it must not be easy for a number of customers to buy one, unless you buy one through internet. I agree with you that some brands are very much focussed on hunters, but that may have to do with optimum sales these brands see for themselves, so one can not blame them for it, since they need it to pay their employees and production costs. As far as the prices of the VBN (Dutch Bird Protection Society) shop is concerned: I do not agree that the prices of their own brands are extremely high, since they sell a range of telescopes and binoculars varying from very low price levels to medium price levels, but no products in the higher price range. In that sense they follow the British Birding Association.

mikefreiberg · Sep 18, 2012

The Kingfisher said:
What I meant was that the focus wheel is positioned too far forward on the scope body so that you are forced to stretch out your arm more than what you need to do on the Nikon ED82. I often rest my arm for long periods on the focus wheel while I am focusing/birding.

Do this little test: tilt your arm as you do in armwrestling (if you know what I mean), and hold it in that position for about 30 seconds. Now position your hand further away from you so that the angle between your forearm and your upper arm gets greater. Hold the arm in that position for 30 seconds. What felt most comfortable and which felt hardest? Then imagine that you would be birding so for several hours and not just for 30 seconds..

Please do the test with both arms simultaneously to more easily determine which one feels the best!

Just got back from a birding show this last weekend. I will be sure to do this test. Thanks for the explanation. Have a good one and thanks for your support.

All the best,
Mike Freiberg
Nikon Birding Market Specialist

Gijs van Ginkel · Sep 26, 2012

Kwikstaart/Martijn,
Since you critised the Dutch Bird Protection Association (VBN) for selling their own brands at very high prices, I looked in their price list and I investigated some of their products. I also investigated their telescope in comparison with the 88 mm Kowa telescope.
This is the outcome of the binoculars sold as VBN own brand and I added were I measured some properties those as well (VBN members get 10% discount of the prices I mention below). All binoculars listed are roof prism binoculars.:
VBN Stern 8x32: 155 euro
VBN Zwaluw 8X32: 465 euro
VBN Stern 8x42: 475 euro
VBN Arend ED 7x42 995 euro, measured light transmission 90-92% at 500 and 555 nm resp. NB The Arend series has an open bridge, is very nice to look at but more important also has excellent optical quality and a very high level of user comfort.
VBN Arend ED 8x42, 975 euro, measured light transmission 86-90%
VBN Stern 10x42 175 euro
VBN Arend ED 10x42 995 euro
VBN Zwaluw 8,5x50 535 euro, measured light transmission 81-83%
VBN Arend ED 8,5x50 1155 euro, measured light transmision 87-89,5%
VBN Stern 10x50 195 euro
VBN Zwaluw 10x50 545 euro, measured light transmission 85-86%
VBN Arend ED 10x50, 1155 euro, measured light transmssion 87-89%
VBN Arend ED 12x50, 1175 euro, measured light transmission 85-86%
The Arend series especially is favoured by customers who look at the new Swarovisions, but do not want to spend the amount of money asked for it and they get a very good (both optically as well as level of user comfort) quality Japan made binocular for their money with a 30-year warranty.
As an enthousiastic Kowa user you will undoubtedly be interested in the own brand telescope sold by the Dutch Bird Protection organisation in comparison with the 88 mm Kowa telescope made by the same Japanese producer as the Arend binoculars.
The VBN telescope is named the VBN Havik 82 ED with ED optics and 82 mm objective diameter. The telescope can be bought with a 20-60x zoom eyepiece or with a wide angle 25-50x eyepiece. As far as looks and handling is concerned the Havik looks a lot like the Kowa telescope.
I give some specifications here below:
VBN Havik 82ED + 20-60x eyepiece, price 1499 euro, measured light transmissions 77-84% (at 500 and 550 nm resp.)
VBN Havik 82ED + 25-50x wide angle eyepece, price 1599 euro
The telescope has a Swarovski mount, so Swarovski eyepieces can also be applied.
In comparison the data for the 88 mm Kowa telescope with 20-60x zoom eyepiece: price in 2011 2920 euro, measured light transmissions 69-75%
From this list of data I can only conclude that your remark that the Dutch Bird Protection Association sells their own brands for exceptional high prices are wrong and not based on facts.
Moreover the VBN Havik 82ED outperforms the 88 mm Kowa telescope on a number of properties (not taste but factual ones) and, even more important for VBN customers, the price is much lower than the price of the Kowa telescope.

kwikstaart · Sep 26, 2012

Gijs van Ginkel said:
Kwikstaart/Martijn,
Since you critised the Dutch Bird Protection Association (VBN) for selling their own brands at very high prices, I looked in their price list and I investigated some of their products. I also investigated their telescope in comparison with the 88 mm Kowa telescope.
This is the outcome of the binoculars sold as VBN own brand and I added were I measured some properties those as well (VBN members get 10% discount of the prices I mention below). All binoculars listed are roof prism binoculars.:
VBN Stern 8x32: 155 euro
VBN Zwaluw 8X32: 465 euro
VBN Stern 8x42: 475 euro
VBN Arend ED 7x42 995 euro, measured light transmission 90-92% at 500 and 555 nm resp. NB The Arend series has an open bridge, is very nice to look at but more important also has excellent optical quality and a very high level of user comfort.
VBN Arend ED 8x42, 975 euro, measured light transmission 86-90%
VBN Stern 10x42 175 euro
VBN Arend ED 10x42 995 euro
VBN Zwaluw 8,5x50 535 euro, measured light transmission 81-83%
VBN Arend ED 8,5x50 1155 euro, measured light transmision 87-89,5%
VBN Stern 10x50 195 euro
VBN Zwaluw 10x50 545 euro, measured light transmission 85-86%
VBN Arend ED 10x50, 1155 euro, measured light transmssion 87-89%
VBN Arend ED 12x50, 1175 euro, measured light transmission 85-86%
The Arend series especially is favoured by customers who look at the new Swarovisions, but do not want to spend the amount of money asked for it and they get a very good (both optically as well as level of user comfort) quality Japan made binocular for their money with a 30-year warranty.
As an enthousiastic Kowa user you will undoubtedly be interested in the own brand telescope sold by the Dutch Bird Protection organisation in comparison with the 88 mm Kowa telescope made by the same Japanese producer as the Arend binoculars.
The VBN telescope is named the VBN Havik 82 ED with ED optics and 82 mm objective diameter. The telescope can be bought with a 20-60x zoom eyepiece or with a wide angle 25-50x eyepiece. As far as looks and handling is concerned the Havik looks a lot like the Kowa telescope.
I give some specifications here below:
VBN Havik 82ED + 20-60x eyepiece, price 1499 euro, measured light transmissions 77-84% (at 500 and 550 nm resp.)
VBN Havik 82ED + 25-50x wide angle eyepece, price 1599 euro
The telescope has a Swarovski mount, so Swarovski eyepieces can also be applied.
In comparison the data for the 88 mm Kowa telescope with 20-60x zoom eyepiece: price in 2011 2920 euro, measured light transmissions 69-75%
From this list of data I can only conclude that your remark that the Dutch Bird Protection Association sells their own brands for exceptional high prices are wrong and not based on facts.
Moreover the VBN Havik 82ED outperforms the 88 mm Kowa telescope on a number of properties (not taste but factual ones) and, even more important for VBN customers, the price is much lower than the price of the Kowa telescope.

Hello Gijs,
Thanks for the extensive report, I must have hit a nerve

but I don't want to offend or anything. I think that you misinterpreted my questions. Maybe better for pm after this. I have nothing against the VBN-brand as I do not know enough of them. What I do know is that all these "house"- brands are made in the same Chinese factory as many other brands (this can't be a surprise for you) And that there is more than light gathering capacity that makes the optical performance.

With VBN members get a 10% discount on the advised retailprice. But in every known optics-shop in NL the 10% discount is already calculated and even then the asked prices are lower. For example: You can still buy the Kowa for hundreds of euro's cheaper. But of course with buying at VBN you support VBN, a very good reason to buy over there, buy the way. But, the VBN-brand can also be bought but with another name on it in a slightly different design and with a bit lower price. But again, one buys at VBN also for the good cause!

My other point was that in every, every (international) test the Kowa TSN 883 excelled, also compared to SW, also in brightness. The only test in which it didn't, was yours and that surprised me. Your reply is that I should ask all the other testers and that your test is about the only good one but I asked you. A difference to me is that other tests add, above all scientific calculations (and even these calculations sometimes differ from yours), the actual use of the telescopes in practice. Second: in tests I would like to read about the little (possible) slips in design/optics or where improvement is possible. But then for all makes. I really appreciate your tests and time involved but don't feel offended when I state this fact. I cannot manage to cpy the picture from the Kowa-test form the site www.tvwg.nl where they compare transmission and resolution but it's clear that the tested Kowa is the winner. Even in the test with the Swaro ATM the Kowa had the slightly better resolution and brightness as you can see in the picture. These photo's are black and white so it doesn't say anything about colours.

I also don't want to boost Kowa or dislike any other: just curious as to what causes the differences between tests. Could you have had a bad sample.

Please ask any other question via PM. But I would really, really like to participate in a real sometime test and meet you. May be we can arrange that? I suggest that we communicate via PM if there are any other questions.

Gijs van Ginkel · Sep 26, 2012

Kwikstaart/Martijn,
I appreciate your long reply. Wit regard to the VBN Zwaluw and the VBN Arend: they are made by the same Japanese producer, which also makes Kowa and not by a Chinese company.

EDG85 - no match for my ED82.. ;) (1 Viewer)

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