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Old Sunday 18th June 2006, 20:23   #1
Sout Fork
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Thumbs down Digiscoping?-back to square one

Well I tried the so-called digital adaptor on my 100mm Pentax and it
didn't work.

Too slow, clumsy and with uncertain results.

So let's start at square one again...

Assuming I was willing to spend the money to solve the problem what
about this:

Use the Pentax PF-CA35 camera adaptor
http://www.pentax.co.jp/english/prod...ca35/spec.html
Question: This would give me a telephoto of 1910mm- what or how do
you determine what power this would give me?

coupled to a decent DSLR camera like the Pentax K100D with image
stabilization.
http://www.pentaximaging.com/product...n--digital_slr

It seems to me to do it right I need a SLR camera with a real through the lens viewfinder to know what's going on. Point and shot cameras with zooms
just don't cut it. LCD are worthless out in the bright sun when trying to shot fast and reliably.

Any other possible high quality solutions that might be possible?
Any possible solution has to be fast and give reliable results under
real field conditions-get the bird in the FOV, focus and shot.

thanks,
SF

Last edited by Sout Fork : Sunday 18th June 2006 at 20:36.
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Old Wednesday 2nd August 2006, 23:12   #2
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Been There

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sout Fork
Well I tried the so-called digital adaptor on my 100mm Pentax and it
didn't work.

Too slow, clumsy and with uncertain results.

So let's start at square one again...

Assuming I was willing to spend the money to solve the problem what
about this:

Use the Pentax PF-CA35 camera adaptor
http://www.pentax.co.jp/english/prod...ca35/spec.html
Question: This would give me a telephoto of 1910mm- what or how do
you determine what power this would give me?

coupled to a decent DSLR camera like the Pentax K100D with image
stabilization.
http://www.pentaximaging.com/product...n--digital_slr

It seems to me to do it right I need a SLR camera with a real through the lens viewfinder to know what's going on. Point and shot cameras with zooms
just don't cut it. LCD are worthless out in the bright sun when trying to shot fast and reliably.

Any other possible high quality solutions that might be possible?
Any possible solution has to be fast and give reliable results under
real field conditions-get the bird in the FOV, focus and shot.

thanks,
SF
Its a hard nut to crack, it wont happen easily. Olympus does make an SLR with a view through LCD now but I believe the Pentax SLR adapter will only fit Pentax SLR cameras. Of course your digital SLR has a through the lens view finder. I have been trying to put together a package for months, within budget at least, thats why I purchased the Pentax instead of the Swarosky. After getting great first results with a basic setup which I returned, I went out to look for something better. I must have looked at every possible way to accomplish this task and here are my two cents. There are a number of high end scopes that make great screw adapter systems (Kowa, Swaro) and Lica has a slide on universal adapter now. You can also put a 1.25" Vixen LV (Tele-Vue) eyepiece on your Pentax scope and use their DG-LV adapter, but you will have to have the correct threads on the camera (28mm, 37, 43, or 52). Its a very nice adapter and works very well and the LV eyepiece is also very good. The problem with any threaded or propritory adapter is the camera, they change every three months and if it fails then your most likely out of luck. Fewer cameras are equiped with threads much less remote shutter. Pentax no longer makes a camera that fits their adapter, those lasted about 6 months. The scope will be with you for a long time, maybe three or four camera's later. So after pulling my hair out, I decided to go back to the universal adapter (Radian large) and the Penatax scope (SMC zoom) which I will receive in a couple of days. I do have some experience with the Radian adapter and mostly all very good first results. Its not the best adapter, its bigger and more cumbersom than a screw on set up but smaller than some of the other universal setups. You can look through the eyepiece, then slide it on, tighten it and take your photo. It's still not like using the DG-LV type set up but you dont have to find a camera with threads and a camera with all the other features you need to digiscope. A screw on or slide on adapter works very well, but its a very hard system to put together with a camera and scope and make it last for many years. The camera is the weak link, this way no matter what camera I use I will always be able to use it on the scope. I dont know why it hangs down so far but its better than hand holding. I plan to add a swing out flat arm for the shutter cable and look at shortening it up some.
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Old Thursday 3rd August 2006, 02:09   #3
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Thanks for your thoughts PCC,

After much thought I have come to the conclusion...

It seems to me to do it right I need a DSLR camera with a real through
the lens viewfinder to know what's going on. Point and shot cameras with
zooms coupled to the spotter eyepiece just don't cut it. Too much glass
in the optical path for really first rate results and a LCD is worthless
out in the bright sun when trying to shot fast and reliably.

Most so-called "Digiscoping" systems with spotters seem to be a kludge
job of trying to make a inferior zoom cameras lens work through
mis-matched spotter eyepieces.

It seems to me there is just too many hassles trying to get all these
incompatible optical and mechanical elements to work quickly, simply and
reliably together especially when one is dealing with fast moving
wildlife out in the field. I know it can be done by all the good
pictures I've seen on the net using the digiscoping method. But I have
to question how many great photos opportunities have been missed by the
use of these klutzy systems. With wildlife photography, more often than
not, a photo opportunity is a once in a lifetime thing.

There may very well be some ideal combination of eyepiece+adaptor+camera+scope
etc that would suit my purposes. The truth is I just don't have the
inclination to go on some search for the holy grail of this ideal
combination. I think I would find it costly, frustrating and time
consuming.

So I bit the bullet and have bought the following:

Pentax DL DSLR camera
with 1 gig of memory.

A Manfrotto Gimbal Fork mount head for the big 100mm.

Pentax DSLR camera adaptor-this replaces both the eyepiece and the
camera lens when digiscoping and everything is designed to work together
with no additional adapters, clamps, tubes or adjustments. Just leave
the adapter on the camera and you can change from digiscoping to
viewing through an eyepiece with no more trouble or setup than swapping
eyepieces.

Pentax remote shutter release.

All of this will be mounted on
top of a Manfrotto 3246 tripod.

I have everything now except the Camera which should be here by friday.


So give me the weekend to play with this setup and I will give you a
few first impressions with photos by Sunday or Monday under this thread.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply,

SF
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Old Thursday 3rd August 2006, 13:14   #4
mmdnje
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Hi Sout Fork. Can't wait to see your results. I have been thinkin about the KF100 with shake control and using the pentax 40mm pancake lens attached to the XW20 eyepece directely. Please let us know. Jose
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Old Friday 4th August 2006, 09:12   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmdnje
Hi Sout Fork. Can't wait to see your results. I have been thinkin about the KF100 with shake control and using the pentax 40mm pancake lens attached to the XW20 eyepece directely. Please let us know. Jose
Jose,

With respect to shake reduction on the Pentax K100D...

If you go here
http://www.digital.pentax.co.jp/en/3...d/feature.html

You will see this stated:
"Note: The degree of shake reduction effect may vary, depending on the lens used and/or the photographic conditions. Users are advised to turn the SR system off when using the K100D on a tripod."

A red flag went off when I saw this so I checked further into this.
It turns out that the SR system is optimized for hand-held camera use not tripod use.

Hand held movement is very different than the kind of movement you would get off a tripod. On one the movement tends to be slow deep and of low frequency while on the other it is fast very shallow and of high frequency. Apparently you can design for one or the other but not both. Pentax designed theirs for hand-held use.

Thus I was advised that not only would SR not help on a tripod mounted long lens system but that SR might degrade image quality when mounted on a sturdy tripod. So turn it off when using a proper tripod.

Just thought you should be warned.

SF
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Old Monday 7th August 2006, 22:21   #6
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First day in the field with new setup.

A few reduced photos.

Will be in field all week.

More details later...

SF
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Old Friday 11th August 2006, 22:22   #7
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Tried And Failed

Just thought I would let you know I tried the PF80 with the SMC zoom with the large universal digiscope adapter and it did not work for me. The adapter can only be placed on the close and far end of the eyepiece. The adapter plate would not allow enough travel to attach the camera (Pentax WP43) and the hard eyecup would not cover the lens. My camera works great when there is a rubber eyecup and a level eyepiece, back to square one HA. If you do the SLR thing you might be able to attach an extension tube and double or triple your length (2350mm ?)
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Old Tuesday 15th August 2006, 00:26   #8
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Very Nice Photo's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sout Fork
First day in the field with new setup.

A few reduced photos.

Will be in field all week.

More details later...

SF
Those pictures look very good, and good depth of field, it was probably easier too.
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Old Tuesday 15th August 2006, 06:33   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCC
Those pictures look very good, and good depth of field, it was probably easier too.
Sorry for delay.

Added an A-Focal and Prime Focus adapter as well as the Pentax Camera adapter to the mix.

So needed some additional time to mess about with all three systems before I said anything about them.

Will be in the field with all three tommorrow and should be able to give a least a rough idea of how they work out under actual field use.

Look for a report from me by tuesday one way or the other.

SF
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Old Thursday 17th August 2006, 14:31   #10
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This is a short report on three different camera adapter configurations
using Pentax 80mm and 100mm spotter scopes...

1. Prime focus. No optics between the focal plane of the camera and the
scope. See pic 1

2. Afocal. An adapter that allows you to use a eyepiece between the
camera and the scope. See pic 2 and this link:

http://www.astronomics.com/main/Bush...roduct_id/1305

3. Pentax Camera adapter. Optically, as far as I can see, the same as
Afocal except it is made from the ground up for the single purpose of
matching a Pentax camera to a Pentax spotter scope. See pic 3.

Prime focus:
Tried this only on the 80mm. Focus from about 8 feet to 30 feet. Left
and right and up and down are reversed. At first I was disappointed
because of the focus range. However it does has it's uses as a
macro-telephoto. I took some stunning pictures of Hummers coming to the
feeder at about 12 feet using the remote camera release at about 25
feet from camera. Absolutely drop-dead sharp. Bright, sharp and vivid.
Within it's focus range the best optical performance of all the
configurations.

Afocal:
This requires fitting an eyepiece within the barrel of the adapter and
most eps won't fit. However I lucked out. I have a wide field 20x from
my 30 year old Bushnell Spacemaster that fits like it was made for it.
Just dumb luck. This ep has no barrel but screws in directly to the
scope. However, as luck would have it, the main body of the ep is
exactly 1.25 inches so the ep fits within the barrel clamp area of the
adapter. The thumbscrew tightens directly against the main body of the
ep. It works perfectly. Full focus from 20 feet to infinity. Also gives
me more magnification than any other configuration. Can't say for sure
what power exactly because the ep only says "20x Wide Field" with no
focal length given. Anyone know the fl of a 30 year old Bushnell
Spacemaster? Color fringing, resolution and softening at the edges worse
than the Pentax Camera Adapter but not awful just comparatively worse.
Got some decent pictures with this setup. Perhaps sometime I'll hunt
around for a higher quality ep that fits as well as the Bushnell does.
For now I'm a happy camper using as is.

Pentax Camera Adapter:
This configuration gives me about 38x I think. Works well. At $360
bucks it should and it does. Easy to setup in the field. Sharp right out
to the edges. Color correction seems to be excellent. No fringing at all
that I can see. I thought at f 12.5 it would be too dark under many
situations but so far works OK. An ISO of 400 or 800 gives me all the
light I need for most of my situations. A bonus has been the Pentax
DSLR gives decent performance out to a ISO of 1600. Sometimes you
actually do get what you pay for.

A special commendation goes to the Manfrotto Gimbal head. Setup on the
big Manfrotto tripod with the 100mm it works like a dream. Perfect
balance with very smooth pan and tilt. Swing the big scope around to an
object let go and it just stops moving. Rock solid without any
additional tightening. Just let go and push the remote. No jitters. My
kind of hardware. I can't imagine using the big 100mm on any less of a
mount. At a little over 20 pounds this is not for everyone but it works
for me.

This is a lot of hardware to report on so to keep it brief I'll stop
here. If you have any questions in detail just ask.

SF
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Last edited by Sout Fork : Thursday 17th August 2006 at 15:12.
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Old Wednesday 13th September 2006, 23:39   #11
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K100d

Are you using the K100D or the DL body? The shake reduction will only work up to 800mm focal length and it has to be manualy set or the lens has to tell it what focal length it is. They also told me that the 800mm included the 1.5 multiplier factor for digital censor.

Last edited by PCC : Thursday 14th September 2006 at 21:09.
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Old Sunday 17th September 2006, 08:22   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCC
Are you using the K100D or the DL body? .

I'm using the DL body. Im confident that my present head and tripod is about as stable as you can can get within real world limitations.
IS would add little, if anything, to the quality of my pics.

Will throw in a few more examples I have taken since last post.
Remember these have been reduced from RAW files of 10 mb to well under 200k.

The snail was taken at prime focus (nothing between focal plane of camera and scope) at about 12 feet I think.

SF
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Last edited by Sout Fork : Sunday 17th September 2006 at 09:37.
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Old Sunday 17th September 2006, 16:25   #13
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the rabbit has a tic or something on its neck.
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Old Tuesday 10th October 2006, 19:10   #14
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A little followup..

The thing I dislike most about my setup is the mirror and/or shutter noise of the SLR. Get close to a bird and they hear it and get spooky.

On the other hand Pentax camera handles an ISO 3200 very well in my opinion. See for yourself below.

The catbird was taken with the prime focus setup.

SF
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Old Tuesday 14th November 2006, 13:11   #15
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Pentax question

Hi,
I am currently using a Pentax ED80 scope like yours and I want to get a DSLR. I am currently looking into the Nikon D80 and the Pentax K10. I would very much favor the K10 becuase of the camera adapter that you mention that seems to work very well. Unfortunately, it seems like it could be many months befor I can get the K10.

Have you tried any of the XW eyepieces ? IE: I have a 14mm and 20MM XW eyepiece and I was thinking of modifying a t-mount (42mm) and enlarging it to 43mm and try out the eyepieces in afocal mode.

Do you think it would work ? This way, it would be usable on the nikon AND the pentax. It would make my choice easier if it did.

Thanks
Gary
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Old Tuesday 14th November 2006, 19:48   #16
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HI Sout Fork.

I have in front of me at this moment a Bushnell Space master camera mount that is the legend on the mount plus 22-3020

There are three collums of numbers on its tube length.

As follows,
collum one 15 x = 750 f/11
840 f/12
upto1500 f/21
collumn two 20x= 1500-f/21
up to 2160-f/31
collumn three 25x =2160-f/31
up to 3000-f/43



I was using it on a cannon T70 but it was not any good because Icould only see a clear picture in the view finder in the middle where the split view is for focussing .

Hope this is of some use to you.

All the best hairy123
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Old Wednesday 15th November 2006, 07:25   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devouges
Hi,
I am currently using a Pentax ED80 scope like yours and I want to get a DSLR. I am currently looking into the Nikon D80 and the Pentax K10. I would very much favor the K10 becuase of the camera adapter that you mention that seems to work very well. Unfortunately, it seems like it could be many months befor I can get the K10.

Have you tried any of the XW eyepieces ? IE: I have a 14mm and 20MM XW eyepiece and I was thinking of modifying a t-mount (42mm) and enlarging it to 43mm and try out the eyepieces in afocal mode.

Do you think it would work ? This way, it would be usable on the nikon AND the pentax. It would make my choice easier if it did.

Thanks
Gary
Gary,
I'm sorry but I have no experience with this kind of setup. My setup does not use either a camera lens nor a ep.

Anyone else out there that could help Gary?

SF
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Old Tuesday 15th May 2007, 19:23   #18
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Since last summer when I first started this thread I've had a chance to refine my technique using this equipment.

With all this new equipment you can imagine it took a while to sort things out.

I leave it up to you to decide if this setup works or not...

SF
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Old Tuesday 15th May 2007, 19:46   #19
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Works a treat.
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Old Wednesday 16th May 2007, 03:19   #20
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You've certainly refined your technique and sorted things out! Very nice work!!
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Old Wednesday 16th May 2007, 08:28   #21
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Great captures
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Cheers
Nick
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Old Thursday 17th May 2007, 00:08   #22
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Nice reports SF and the results look good. I'm still deciding what to do with my new 100 mm scope. I will have to get a gymbal type head as well as the scope plus camera is too long for my current setup.
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Old Tuesday 22nd May 2007, 15:34   #23
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Camera Adaptor

Hello SF,

Quick question if I may, ref your post dated Jan 2006 and the three photos of your camera attached to your spotting scope. Im wondering how you attached the camera to the scope as shown in Photo 1 (from left to right) Prime focus. If you mentioned an adaptor name/model number, Im sorry I must have missed it. I am having no luck finding any information by searching the web.

Enjoy you posts and the information you so generously share. The pictures are great. I have the PF-CA35 but have not had pictures as sharp as yours. I plan to give it another try this weekend.

Thank You

Dick
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Old Wednesday 23rd May 2007, 08:15   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dicklynch View Post
Hello SF,

Quick question if I may, ref your post dated Jan 2006 and the three photos of your camera attached to your spotting scope. Im wondering how you attached the camera to the scope as shown in Photo 1 (from left to right) Prime focus. If you mentioned an adaptor name/model number, Im sorry I must have missed it. I am having no luck finding any information by searching the web.

Enjoy you posts and the information you so generously share. The pictures are great. I have the PF-CA35 but have not had pictures as sharp as yours. I plan to give it another try this weekend.

Thank You

Dick
The prime focus and afocal adaptor are one and the same it's just that when using as prime focus you don't use the extension tube part.

Go here and it will be obvious what I mean:

http://www.agenaastro.com/Camera-Ada...aar-ag-fep.htm
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Old Thursday 24th May 2007, 16:39   #25
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Got it.

Thanks SF, totally missed it first time.

Dick
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