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Caspian/YLG Minsmere (1 Viewer)

ben_lewis

Well-known member
Bird 1
This adult gull was pointed out as being a Caspian gull to me yesterday. I'd like to accept it and record it as a Casp but I have some niggling doubts.
The photos show the mantle as being darker than in real life, the legs were a pale straw yellow.
a) is it a caspian gull?
b) Why isnt it a yellow legged gull?

Bird 2
This gull took my eye, pale small head, elongate wings and good tertial step, is it just a Herring or not?

Bird 3
Again this bird stood out a bit from the rest, it looked pretty stocky and short winged with a small pale eye- Herring?

Thanks for your help
 

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Bird 1 looks like Yellow-legged. Mantle tone too dark, head shape wrong, red eye ring, bill too strong, centre of gravity between the legs rather than behind.
 
No 2 looks preety good for a Caspian Gull, but I'm not 100% sure about it. No 3 is a Herring Gull. I'm not sure about No.1 too, but it doesn't look good for a Caspian.
Any pics with the underside of the wing tip for No. 1 and No. 2?
 
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I have Gull 1's underwing, but not gull2 unfortunately.

Thanks for the comments so far,
 

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1 - looks like ad. yellow-legged albeit with 2 irregularities: p5 has not a solid mark over both webs, just a stronger fleck on outer, and legs are not bright yellow: adult YLG in alternate plumage (spring) usually has very bright yellow legs.

2 - not possible to tell from this pic. could be either tatus, mich or cach.

3 - HG, 4cy.

cheers
 
I certainly was not convinced by the adult gull, hence posting it in here. I was told that it had too long a bill and too pointed wings for a ylg which slightly surprised me as id features. Leg colour was definitely an issue as it had dull yellow legs (I know casp sometimes do), the head seemed a bit bulky compared to other casps I have seen too and the mantle appeared a couple of shades too dark.
Bird 2 seemed a more likely candidate to me at the time, but I have no images showing spread wings etc. The 2 images below are about as good as it gets for bird 2- legs not lanky enough for casp? The gulls upright stance does look better though
 

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In the first bird (3 pic) I see a broad dark mark on p5 and a bonus mark on p4 (so to speak). Does it make it a Yellow-legged? I would say probably but some more black on the outer primaries - p8 is hidden behind p7 I think.
Bird 2 has some resemblance to a Caspian but an open wing would probably settle things.

Bird 3 (I gather the subject bird is the one in the foreground,also pictured in pic 5?), is a Herring as mentioned but what about the one behind.

JanJ
 
So...
The adult bird (pics 1,2,3,6) is probably a yellow legged but the spread wing is not quite conclusive enough to be sure.

Pics 4, 7 and 8 could show a Caspian but the spread wing would need to be seen to confirm.
(JanJ, is this the bird that you mentioned above as being the interesting one behind bird 3)

Looks like I have 2 nearly but not quites.. I'll keep looking for now then.

Thanks for looking at the pics
 
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are you sure, that the 2 pics in post 6 are bird 2? it's exactly in the place where bird 1 was photogr. and it actually looks like this one.

back to bird 1: yes, jan is right, i was mistaken about p5: it has a very solid mark and p4 has an additional spot on outer web. this together with pale iris, subterminal mark to p10 tip, darker mantle than argenteus and yellow legs should clinch it as a female type YLG (you can add head shape but i don't give too much about that). some ind. simply might not be in mating mood yet (hormonal thing, causing bright legs). for a female type it has rel. short wings (but within variation).
caspian tendentially has even longer wings but there is much variation and overlap. and yes, most caspian gulls gain dull yellow legs in spring, similar to this YLG.

no new pics for no. 2 but it also has a subterminal band to p10 tip (separating mirror from apical spot/white tip) which is better for YLG but doesn't exclude caspian. this most probably is another YLG, because i don't see any long white tongue on underside of p10. in most ad caspians this reaches beyond the tertial step and would be visible where there is only black in this bird, also p10 mirror is on the short side for caspian.
 
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That Ben; he causes gull problems at Sandwich and then he moves to......

Nice set of pics mate. Proves the best season of the year isn't quite over!

Is there too much black on the underside of P10 in Bird 1 for it to be a Caspian? Either way, it's a Yellow-legged Gull.

Bird 2 - can't be a Herring. Tertials and wing coverts would strongly favour YLG or Caspian I reckon. Looks better for Caspian?

Bird 3 is a Herring as stated by all.

Cheers,

Andy.
 
That Ben; he causes gull problems at Sandwich and then he moves to......

Nice set of pics mate. Proves the best season of the year isn't quite over!

Is there too much black on the underside of P10 in Bird 1 for it to be a Caspian? Either way, it's a Yellow-legged Gull.

Bird 2 - can't be a Herring. Tertials and wing coverts would strongly favour YLG or Caspian I reckon. Looks better for Caspian?

Bird 3 is a Herring as stated by all.

Cheers,

Andy.

1. yes, too much black for caspian
2. looks better for YLG, read my last post.
 
no new pics for no. 2 but it also has a subterminal band to p10 tip (separating mirror from apical spot/white tip) which is better for YLG but doesn't exclude caspian. this most probably is another YLG, because i don't see any long white tongue on underside of p10. in most ad caspians this reaches beyond the tertial step and would be visible where there is only black in this bird, also p10 mirror is on the short side for caspian.

Your quite right, you probably should be able to see the tongue on p10 from the picture. Also, the bill looks a little chunky and not parallel sided enough for caspian(?)
However I do quite agree with you Andy, the jizz looks quite caspian-like, its just the other features that perhaps let it down
 
Your quite right, you probably should be able to see the tongue on p10 from the picture. Also, the bill looks a little chunky and not parallel sided enough for caspian(?)
However I do quite agree with you Andy, the jizz looks quite caspian-like, its just the other features that perhaps let it down

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=314258&d=1300807502

Might be referencing different birds in different photos....

My bird 2 is in the fourth pic in post 1 (behind the sleeping Herring). Looks good for 3rd calendar Caspian IMO (but could be a YLG).

All pics of adults show YLG(s).

Cheers,

Andy.
 
I should have labelled the pictures!
Your bird 2 Andy is (I think) the same as depicted in the final 2 images (bird to the right of the images facing left- yawning)
 
bird 2: now i get it. sorry, did see the bird but didn't pay too much attention. indeed, that 3cy could be a caspian. note similarity with 4cy herring below it (bird 3). still it is not wise to settle an ID here, more pics would have been advisable.
 
that 3cy could be a caspian. note similarity with 4cy herring below it (bird 3). still it is not wise to settle an ID here, more pics would have been advisable.

Agreed mate.

Nice comparison with the Herring. Herring typically shows barred/vermiculated tertials and wing coverts (and that's before we look at structure...). I'm assuming the white primary tips age it as 4th Calendar (3rd winter).

Bird behind it has dark spotted wing coverts (those that aren't 3rd generation*) and dark centred tertial. Structure looks better for 3rd calendar (2nd winter) Caspian but as stated by Lou and others, more pics would help.

Cheers,

Andy.

* 3rd gen?
 
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