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Gull (1 Viewer)

jforgham said:
Evening all,
Just about to go along to my local patch. Little breeze this evening may cause a movement of hirundines. Good luck on the boat Peregrinator. Reckon you'll still get a load of birds in and around the reedbeds.
Attached one last gull photo. Not for diessection of reasons as to what it is, (as you can see). Just thought it was a rarity.
Jono

Looks like a knackered leucistic herring gull to me.

"""I have only just seen this thread, and havn't read it all (thus somebody may have already covered this issue), but the majority of Caspian Gulls will have a dark iris - for me, I don't think the original picture is off a Caspian Gull - certainly not like any I have ever seen, plus the head shape is generally wrong, and that bill structure can be found on Herring Gulls.

Mark"""

Wanna come and look at some eastern phylloscs Mark ;) :t:
 
Wanna come and look at some eastern phylloscs Mark ;) :t:[/QUOTE]

Invite me as well, but this Gull thing may add to live as well
 
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As mentioned earlier, the adult gull seems to be moulting it´s head, creating an odd appearance to bill/head proportions, and I´m not saying that it is a Caspian Gull, because, althoug this one, which I´m about to link, has a small looking dark eye with a reddish looking orbital ring (theory is that dark-eyed Caspians usually has red orbital ring). it is somehow similar in it´s 'tatty' appearance due to moult, but it feels more Caspian

http://idata.over-blog.com/0/19/28/85/larus-cachinnans-05/cach39.jpg

Wonder what would happen if we swapped eyes with the subject gull?

JanJ
 
lou salomon said:
the only thing i can see on the undertail of the "black and white" one, bob's caspian type juvenile, is that they seem to be whitish, little patterned - which would be also in favour of cachinnans.

BOB, DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER PIC OF YOUR BIRD???
Lou ,Jan I don't know if this will help,it looks a lot lighter in these shots to me,there was very strong sunlight (midday)!!
 

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London Birder said:
doubt ID? not particularly, query it? of course! the ID seems a little inconclusive at present on that bird, though clearly not in your mind, just thought a few pics of your local birds, wherever that may be, would help ... always nice to learn more and pics can be a great help, simple really :)

Always wise to query about ident, especially pictures of gulls seen on the web !
I'm not 100% sure of the ID bird just that the juv Yellow-legged I'm seeing are very like this gull. Even a big male graellsii would not look so big in my opinion.


And a final word, sorry London Birder, it was a general remark (my remark about photos) there was not the smallest hint of "anger" (it's not the right word but my english is too poor) against you.
 
Th_SQ said:
Always wise to query about ident, especially pictures of gulls seen on the web !
I'm not 100% sure of the ID bird just that the juv Yellow-legged I'm seeing are very like this gull. Even a big male graellsii would not look so big in my opinion.


And a final word, sorry London Birder, it was a general remark (my remark about photos) there was not the smallest hint of "anger" (it's not the right word but my english is too poor) against you.

as about identity, your personal one, Th_SQ - it remains elusive since there's nothing to go on your pers. profile. just that you're not a brit/us-american, aussie seems to be clear now. let me guess: member of 'la grand nation'?

i actually have a hard time with the identity of the first juv gull discussed in this thread (oh, i love these endless 'sausages' with tons of different birds to refer to, it's like a balcanic cofee-klatsch). even jan is unsure. it just looked much more graellsii to me than micha but it's a border case (or how do call that in engl.?).

as for bob's gull (thanks for posting the pics, bob) - ouuuuua, now it looks much more YLG-like than before.ggrrrmbl. that mask on the right side of its face, the shorter lookin' bill (ok, different angle). and really strange tertial pattern! hmhmhmhmhm.
 
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Fascinating when looking at Bob's first image, how appearance can change, like in the new image. Now getting a better view of the tail, a better colour balance and bill (which could still fit a Caspian!) I´m quite confident in this being a YLG.

JanJ
 
congrats!

fantana said:
P10 seems to be caspian gull like.
pale grey upperparts fitting with ponticus race (the race with longer bill, larger percentage with paller eye,etc)

hey fantana! welcome to BirdForum and a good wedding on saturday!!! B :) B :) B :) B :) B :) B :) B :) B :) B :) B :)
 
lou salomon said:
even jan is unsure

Again, I'm not sure but I just favor Yellow-Legged.


lou salomon said:
about bob's gull

Really unlike juv Caspian gull as usually described.

The eye is already a little pale and the base of the bill pink. Really strange.
 
can't be a pale base of bill because it's michahellis. actually all juvenile gulls have a black bill. and where do you see any paler iris???
 
Th_SQ said:
Again, I'm not sure but I just favor Yellow-Legged.




Really unlike juv Caspian gull as usually described.

The eye is already a little pale and the base of the bill pink. Really strange.
Thanks everyone ,I will be back down the marsh tomorrow to see what other gulls are around,I passed earlier this evening and saw about 200 resting up in the scrub,fingers crossed for something unusual for you to ID.
 
lou salomon said:
can't be a pale base of bill because it's michahellis.
Can you explain this ????


lou salomon said:
all juvenile gulls have a black bill
Sorry, it's not correct. It's not uncommon for juv Herring Gull to have pale base of bill.


lou salomon said:
any paler iris???
On right picture. On my monitor the eye is dark reddish-brown (ie not black)
 
sorry if i sounded a bit rude, th_sq. both caspian and YLG juv have black bills, and in 99% I'd say argentatus too (i'm talking about juveniles in july, not 1st winters) but it can get a pale base soon, in autumn, in caspian gull too, that's why i said - "because it's a micha" - YLG usually have an all dark bill (except the tip) until 2nd winter, while caspian tendentially get a paler base earlier. i don't see any pale base in this gull, think it could be dirt.
 
no need for an apology Th_SQ , perfectly accept what you're saying, plus, you're a far better guller than I.



Th_SQ said:
Always wise to query about ident, especially pictures of gulls seen on the web !
I'm not 100% sure of the ID bird just that the juv Yellow-legged I'm seeing are very like this gull. Even a big male graellsii would not look so big in my opinion.


And a final word, sorry London Birder, it was a general remark (my remark about photos) there was not the smallest hint of "anger" (it's not the right word but my english is too poor) against you.
 
I think we are comming down to some details that is of minor importance in order to ID Bob's gull!

Right, I´ve seen juv Herring, Caspian, Yellow-legged, LBBG, Armenian (once) that showed a hint, at close range, of pale base to lower mandible, not so unusual.

JanJ
 
Lou, probably because I'm a mathematician short of common logic, I fail to understand your reasonning : it's a Yellow-legged so the bill must be black (is that it ?). If so, just remains to be proved that the bird is a Yellow-legged ;)
 
marklhawkes said:
but the majority of Caspian Gulls will have a dark iris -

Mark

No no, I didn t have so much of drinks as you guys, I was not suggesting any Armenian gull, I was responding to Marks input, saying that Armenian gull has a dark iris.
 
gerdwichers8 said:
No no, I didn t have so much of drinks as you guys, I was not suggesting any Armenian gull, I was responding to Marks input, saying that Armenian gull has a dark iris.

fair enough, but he was referring to the pale eyed caspian at the beginning of the thread while you said it would fit armenian. now there's me failing in common logic.

-->

ts_qu, i might have been a bit too euphoric about the recent change in points of view about bob's gull: in the second set of pics the bird doesn't look anymore caspian like for me. the statement with black bill ergo micha wasn't meant that much of logics or as a serious id feature but just to reensure i believe it is a ylg. and as such it was silly of course - see jan's comment about juv. gulls and me saying that all of them have black bills - so the 'logic' isn't working either way. crawl.
now why is it a michahellis?
i can't prove it mathematically, just adding one to another. while in the first pic it looked very snouty and with little brown around the eye now the brown smudge is clear (i know some caspian juvs can have it too but not so well defined). i'd expect caspian to be warmer brown on average. the undulation pattern in lower scaps margins i think is not good for caspian but better for ylg, then there is the much better fitting inner greater covert pattern with its strong contrasting rows of spots (but which i have seen in caspians also!). finally you can see at the left corner of the tail that the black band seems to be narrow.
but then again, most of these fit on this caspian (which has a nice small looking eye though, but bob's gull not) :
http://www.bongariliitto.fi/kuvat/11_Rantalinnut/11h_Lokit/larcac_20040809_lahti_kuhpe/998P_a.jpg
sorry for the long reply, now what are your points?
 
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