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UK - Help Please - Have you seen one of these ? (1 Viewer)

I'm not suppressing them! I do send in a report on the Notebooks to the BBRC but with it being a single observer report with no photographic evidence it always gets thrown out.
 
I actually like the easy postings where people haven't looked in a book. They're the ones I get right.

Agree...

And I like "to lose" many hours trying to find o strange gull/duck just to see what JanJ/Joern will say about the bird...and so on...
Don't you think that birdforum it is also a kind of show?

P.S. I'm a person who hates almost everything that can be called entertainment today. For me birding is the ultimate entertainment.
 
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Ah Birdforum,

A nice, friendly place to meet new people, talk about birds, share some images, and be ridiculed by those who know more than you do! :eek!: Huh?

Birdforum prides itself for being for all levels of birder, including those that are so new as to not realize that there are such things as field guides and especially that there is a lot to learn from taking good field notes. These concepts are best taught through mentoring rather than belittlement.

Anyway, seems as though there's a lot of folks who don't mind answering those "silly" questions and looking at nice pictures.

Oblio
 
Hi All

Judging by a lot of recent postings on this Forum , I was wondering if some of the newer posters had seen one of these recently , I am pretty sure that they are quite widespread and pretty much resident in most countries around the world , I appreciate that there may be subtle plumage differences , but I am sure they are available for all to see (!) ;)

Its funny , but after I have seen or photographed a bird that is unfamiliar to me , I tend to see one of these straight away , and then I see no need to post my obvious image here ;)

Maybe its just me ;)

Let me know if you find any !

Simon

Bit harsh aren't you Simon? After all, I bet there's a few things you're not so good at. Or so your wife tells me (cue lots of bawdy Seventies humour....)
 
Ah Birdforum,

A nice, friendly place to meet new people, talk about birds, share some images, and be ridiculed by those who know more than you do! :eek!: Huh?

Birdforum prides itself for being for all levels of birder, including those that are so new as to not realize that there are such things as field guides and especially that there is a lot to learn from taking good field notes. These concepts are best taught through mentoring rather than belittlement.

Anyway, seems as though there's a lot of folks who don't mind answering those "silly" questions and looking at nice pictures.

Oblio

I was just waiting for this to happen. I am speaking from a neutral position, although I do affiliate myself with one of the groups.

Brilliant prodigy birders: thanks for the tip, I have the book, it is excellent, but EVERY SINGLE one of you started somewhere.

Newbies and the like: these guys get stumped too, but when the answers are dead obvious to them, they get a bit cranky.

What is the point of the sub-forum if we are not here to learn? I do not often find myself in a extroadinarily tricky identity problem, but I learn new things in this thread every week.
 
Ah Birdforum,

A nice, friendly place to meet new people, talk about birds, share some images, and be ridiculed by those who know more than you do! :eek!: Huh?

Birdforum prides itself for being for all levels of birder, including those that are so new as to not realize that there are such things as field guides and especially that there is a lot to learn from taking good field notes. These concepts are best taught through mentoring rather than belittlement.

Anyway, seems as though there's a lot of folks who don't mind answering those "silly" questions and looking at nice pictures.

Oblio

Your right, we are all a friendly bunch, and like to help as often as possible.

Speaking as one who regularly posts a reply to id questions. I for one seem to have noticed a switch from all genuine confused birders (inc myself on occasion), to quite a few who don't even seem to try to id birds for themselves! with regular postings (including many daily) of "common" Sp.

If these posters have tried an id, then they don't seem to participate in the discussion much after the initial posting. Giving me the idea they just sit back and let others do the sorting out for them!

I do enjoy a challenge, thats why I participate, but they aren't going to learn much if the forum just id's every bird they see! but it's up to them if they want to get better or not at id, eh!
 
The sentiments are well understood, but speaking as somebody who once posted six or more photos on here, asking exactly which tricky Empidonax flycatcher(s) I was looking at, only to be told (gently) that every one was a Western Wood Peewee (not even the same genus), I also understand the bewilderment perspective.

(I see David Sibley mentions on his blog how he confused a Great Egret with a Loggerhead Shrike........)
 
Yawn

Birdforum may be a place for thickos but is not a place for the over-sensitive, as this light-hearted jibe of a thread has proven.

Yes, we all began somewhere, and we all still make mistakes, but these days people with a computer and no real friends find it easier to have everything given to them rather than go through an educational learning process.

This debate has raged on BF many times before.

I will always forgive those who are not, and never will be birders. They see something weird and find a place to put it. But if you want to learn field craft, identification and bird behaviour, you have to go out into the field and do it with a mentor, not come back home and expect everyone else to do the basics for you.

As well as good i.d. advice, there are countless references to FIELD GUIDES on this forum. So maybe these people could read those, get a field guide and do the work for themselves. Then this forum will have still helped them.

Imagine posting onto a cookery forum "I want to make pancakes - do I need flour?" There are such things as cookery books, as any idiot will know. Look in those first.

As you might be able to tell, I got up very early this morning. A bottle of Cobra might have passed my lips.

Yours petulantly

Seamus
 
I had some of these things you refer to on board (photo 1), but when I got into Southeast Asia, the Middle East and Europe, they didn’t do me much good. Funny how the birds change from one area of the world to the next.
Some of these (photo2) things are not as easy to find as you suggest. I looked for field guides from Malaysia to Greece and couldn’t find a comprehensive book. I only got the Collins about a week ago because I ordered it through the net when I had a security system and a semi-permanent address. I will also order for my next part of the world now. I don’t want to go blind into the Caribbean and South/Central America.

For the first 5 years of our circumnavigation, we didn’t have internet access from our boat. (Hell, we didn’t have refrigeration for the first three!) Our first connection to the internet with our computer was in 2005 while in Egypt. I found BF and was thrilled to have a way to id birds I was unfamiliar with. It was frustrating to see birds and not be able to find out what they were. I did post quite a few photos asking for id while I was in Egypt and Turkey; but I found even more myself by searching the net. It could be a long search at times. I would find the family and then narrow it down to the species. Sometimes those could be confusing, then I had to find behaviour, range or voice. Some of the little brown job warblers were tough; as were Gulls. It really is kind of hard being in a strange place without prior knowledge of the birds there and not being able to find one of those books. For example, the first time I had contact with a European Jay (one of those very common species-as someone mentioned), I was a bit thrown. I heard it first. It was ‘talking’ to itself in a dense group of pines. I thought it sounded like a parrot chattering away. I finally honed in on it with my bins, but only saw a small bit of the head in profile. It flew away and I saw a white rump. I went back to Peregrine and told my husband about the talkative bird that had a head somewhat like a flicker. I saw the bird (in sections) three times before I saw the blue on the wings and it dawned on me it was a jay of some kind. I went into the gallery to search and that night, DOC from Israel had posted a great shot of a European Jay! Mystery solved. I’m really surprised that there are so many posting snide remarks about id posters. We don’t all have the proper reference materials with us all the time. Some people are really new to even noticing birds and may be curious enough to google before going to a book store or library. They should be encouraged to develop an interest in birds and nature, not ridiculed. I am grateful for the help I got here especially with the warblers, raptors and gulls; but I’m glad I have a good book now. I prefer to identify the birds I find myself. I guess I could have shelved all the birds I had questions about until I got books, but I was in strange places with strange birds and I was anxious to find what they were. Even with the book, I still have some raptors and a peep I’m unsure about, but don’t worry, I won’t post.:eek!:
 

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I had some of these things you refer to on board (photo 1), but when I got into Southeast Asia, the Middle East and Europe, they didn’t do me much good. Funny how the birds change from one area of the world to the next.
Some of these (photo2) things are not as easy to find as you suggest. I looked for field guides from Malaysia to Greece and couldn’t find a comprehensive book. I only got the Collins about a week ago because I ordered it through the net when I had a security system and a semi-permanent address. I will also order for my next part of the world now. I don’t want to go blind into the Caribbean and South/Central America.

For the first 5 years of our circumnavigation, we didn’t have internet access from our boat. (Hell, we didn’t have refrigeration for the first three!) Our first connection to the internet with our computer was in 2005 while in Egypt. I found BF and was thrilled to have a way to id birds I was unfamiliar with. It was frustrating to see birds and not be able to find out what they were. I did post quite a few photos asking for id while I was in Egypt and Turkey; but I found even more myself by searching the net. It could be a long search at times. I would find the family and then narrow it down to the species. Sometimes those could be confusing, then I had to find behaviour, range or voice. Some of the little brown job warblers were tough; as were Gulls. It really is kind of hard being in a strange place without prior knowledge of the birds there and not being able to find one of those books. For example, the first time I had contact with a European Jay (one of those very common species-as someone mentioned), I was a bit thrown. I heard it first. It was ‘talking’ to itself in a dense group of pines. I thought it sounded like a parrot chattering away. I finally honed in on it with my bins, but only saw a small bit of the head in profile. It flew away and I saw a white rump. I went back to Peregrine and told my husband about the talkative bird that had a head somewhat like a flicker. I saw the bird (in sections) three times before I saw the blue on the wings and it dawned on me it was a jay of some kind. I went into the gallery to search and that night, DOC from Israel had posted a great shot of a European Jay! Mystery solved. I’m really surprised that there are so many posting snide remarks about id posters. We don’t all have the proper reference materials with us all the time. Some people are really new to even noticing birds and may be curious enough to google before going to a book store or library. They should be encouraged to develop an interest in birds and nature, not ridiculed. I am grateful for the help I got here especially with the warblers, raptors and gulls; but I’m glad I have a good book now. I prefer to identify the birds I find myself. I guess I could have shelved all the birds I had questions about until I got books, but I was in strange places with strange birds and I was anxious to find what they were. Even with the book, I still have some raptors and a peep I’m unsure about, but don’t worry, I won’t post.:eek!:

Clearly this thread is not aimed at you. It is aimed at people who live in a country, claim to be birdwatchers and post a picture of the commonest local bird without trying.

I enjoy looking at every peep, gull and lbj thread - those are the esoteric birds that this forum is all about. On those we nearly all learn.

When I go abroad to see birds, however (given that I'm a birder) I will get a field guide to take with me, as that helps me identify birds in the field while I can look at them - not a day or two later when the photo might not have the relevant bits showing. It's called preparation.

And, some views are so bad there will always be birds that go unidentified.

ps there aren't many woodland birds in Europe with a white rump, let alone big pink ones.
 
Bit harsh aren't you Simon? After all, I bet there's a few things you're not so good at. Or so your wife tells me (cue lots of bawdy Seventies humour....)

Whilst I do know that Simon does own one of these rare, elusive field guides, it's a shame that his page on Sandwich Terns is missing ;)
 
As someone who has indexed, and therefore read most of the ID threads on here, I can attest that this debate (often in less "pointed" form) breaks out on a regular basis.

As I have said on a large number of times before, I don't mind replying to even really obvious birds when people ask. Everyone has to start somewhere, and sometimes people don't have access to literature. What does grate is when the same person posts the same obvious species two, or even ten times.

Oh the other thing that grates is when someone say I have no idea what this is..... they are told its x (fill in common species) and why by several people. Then they start disputing the ID.
 
Yawn

Birdforum may be a place for thickos but is not a place for the over-sensitive, as this light-hearted jibe of a thread has proven.

Seamus

Well said Seamus!

Lighten up. You can tell America is now online...

Oblio, this is a funny thread, go with it. OK, that's only your second post, but if you look elsewhere in this section you'll find that a large majority of people having a laugh on this thread are the very same who elsewhere are sorting out other's ID's for them, and the ones getting it right...
 
I , too, have no problem with a beginner asking for help. Frankly, I think it's good for both parties. The newbie learns how to ID birds. The more experienced birder gains confidence in his or her abilities and learns some of the finer points of the IDs by explaining how they came to their conclusion. But like others on this thread, I have a real problem with people who don't even try to figure it out (or at least who appear that way).

And this American, for one, enjoyed the original, clever post. Gave me a nice laugh at lunch time today when I really needed one.
 
;) and an extra helping of ;) to all the indignant replies "of we all have to start somewhere" ;)

Thats true - its called reading a book or worse still looking on the web - asking time and time again on a frame filling common Wader or Meadow Pipit "is it a Hazelhen" just got too much for me ;)

Its only a matter of time before moderation comes along for this thread ;) so enjoy it while it lasts

And one last thing Bobbie Dazzler Tag - Any idea when your paper on the subtle differences on Gold and Greenfinch identification gets published ;)

ATB

Si
 
Oh go on, let's see the peep!

Now I can’t find the d**n thing. |:$| I took it in Missalongi, Greece. It would be easy for most here to id. I’m almost sure it was a sanderling, but I’ve never seen one in late summer plumage. It had such a prominent supercilium that I wondered; do they show that in late summer? It was standing in shallow water so I couldn’t see if it had a hind toe or not.
 
Clearly this thread is not aimed at you. It is aimed at people who live in a country, claim to be birdwatchers and post a picture of the commonest local bird without trying.

I enjoy looking at every peep, gull and lbj thread - those are the esoteric birds that this forum is all about. On those we nearly all learn.

When I go abroad to see birds, however (given that I'm a birder) I will get a field guide to take with me, as that helps me identify birds in the field while I can look at them - not a day or two later when the photo might not have the relevant bits showing. It's called preparation.
And, some views are so bad there will always be birds that go unidentified.

ps there aren't many woodland birds in Europe with a white rump, let alone big pink ones.

I didn’t go abroad to see birds. My husband and I left California 7 years ago to sail around the world. We are prepared for what we set out to do.
I was able to buy field guides in most places we went. When I have a field guide for a particular area, I always have it with me when I go out, and I use it to id.

...ps there aren't many woodland birds in Europe with a white rump, let alone big pink ones...

No need for sarcasm. I saw the jay on my second day in Turkey. I’d never been to Europe or Turkey and had no idea what was there. Could have been a lot of white-rumped birds as far as I knew. Of course now I know it couldn’t be mistaken for anything else. Now I can id many common European species within a second or two when I see them, that happens when you become familiar with birds in a particular area.
 
If these posters have tried an id, then they don't seem to participate in the discussion much after the initial posting. Giving me the idea they just sit back and let others do the sorting out for them!

Agreed Dougie. It would be nice to see a bit more participation from the posters, but mabey they're afraid of being ridiculed, that wouldn't happen on birdforum. Would it? ;)

Oh the other thing that grates is when someone say I have no idea what this is..... they are told its x (fill in common species) and why by several people. Then they start disputing the ID.

Yes Jane.

Or say their obviously non birding friends thought it looked like something else..but don't say what. :C

Twite
 
As useful a resource as the web clearly is, I think it also has it's drawbacks. When I started birding (20 years ago), my friend and I went out, and if we saw something unusual, we would have to check through the books to identify it. I know that when you first start out, even the simplest ID's can sometimes be bewildering, but by focussing on features and eliminating others, the birds were identified, the knowledge was gained and the learning process moved along. Nowadays, it's too simple to post a picture and say 'what's this?' without putting any effort into the ID beforehand.
And I have grave concerns about those who simply go 'oh, great that's a tick, tara'. Firstly, little has been learned about how the identity was arrived at (unless a breakdown of it has been given, by someone like JanJ who, I'm sure we all learn something from, thanks to very detailed analysis), but generally, the poster will only learn the identity of the bird. Personally I would have extreme trouble in adding something to my list that I was just told what it was, rather than working through the ID process to arrive at the conclusion.
Secondly, I also have concerns about posters who have field guides, but are not using them. One example (and this is aimed at no-one in particular as I can't even remember who posted it) was of a Cedar Waxwing, taken in the US obviously, where the poster claimed 'I've looked through my books and can't find it anywhere'. Exactly how hard did you look? There are only two species of Waxwing in North America so surely it can't have been that difficult to narrow down? Also, the two waxwing species alone do not really resemble any other species, so it should have been fairly straightforward. Now I concede that it's possible that the bird wasn't in any of the books that the poster owned, but for a fairly widespread species like Cedar Waxwing, I'd be quite surprised for it not to appear in any of them.
I just think there's alot to be said for the 'old way' of looking up what a bird is, and arriving at your own conclusion through analysing features, and in some cases, process of elimination. Alot more is learned than just posting a picture and asking what it is.
That's my rant over with
Chris
 
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