Help with new Ultravids (1 Viewer)

CarterMT · Dec 4, 2016

Hi everyone,

I am a longtime visitor of this site, but only recently registered. I live in Northwestern Montana, and birding is a big part of my life.

This year has seen me overhaul my optics, and last week, a new pair of 7x42 Ultravids arrived. Out in the field today, I kept noticing that while in the process of getting them up to my face, I'd see blurry light around the edge of the image. It would disappear as soon as I had the bins firmly in place. Maybe I have been over-scrutinizing these because they are new, but I wonder if maybe this blurry light is a problem, as my other bins don't do this. When I got home today, I looked more closely and noticed that at a small distance, you can see that there is a bit of reflected light outside of the exit pupil when held at an angle. Again, my other optics don't seem to do this, but I am no expert regarding what is normal. I'm sure, though, that this reflected light is what's causing my "issue," but maybe they all do this, I don't know. In any event, it was hard to ignore. I'll attach a pic or two, and hopefully you can see what I mean. Obviously, this is a considerable investment and I want to be sure that everything is OK.

Thanks for your thoughts!

ceasar · Dec 5, 2016

If you are talking about those little narrow flecks of light at the 5 O'Clock and 7 0'Clock positions showing in your photos I wouldn't worry about them. They are called "false pupils" and are outside the cone of light that goes to your pupils. That is why you don't see them after you put the binocular up to your eyes. My Leica 8x42 Ultravid BL also shows them.

Many binoculars have them and some are even bigger, like the ones that I can see in my Zeiss 7x42 Victory FL which uses Abbe/Konig prisms while your Leica uses Schmidt/Pechan prisms. Other binoculars don't have them but in my experience many of them do.

If you go to this link and scroll down to look at the eyepiece reflections of the binocular being reviewed you will see a good picture of its false pupils.

http://www.allbinos.com/238-binoculars_review-Carl_Zeiss_Victory_8x42_T*_FL.html

This Zeiss binocular was ranked 3rd highest in the group of 8x42 binoculars reviewed. It also was released several years earlier than the 2 binoculars (Swarovski and Nikon) which were ranked above it. You can also see small ones in the photo of the eyepieces of the #1 ranked binocular.

The author of the Allbino's reviews doesn't like these false pupils but they seem to do no harm to the view. Scroll down to see his comments about them at the bottom of the review.

Bob

CarterMT · Dec 5, 2016

Yes, exactly, it's the slivers of light at 5 and 7 in the photos. I really appreciate you weighing in on this. Thank you for the link, too. It definitely felt strange using them today; I'm glad to know more and also to be able to put a name to it. I'll be sure to take them out a few more times to see if I can get used to it...

CarterMT · Dec 5, 2016

Do you think that false pupils are more likely to occur in lower magnifications?

NDhunter · Dec 5, 2016

Carter:

I am wondering about your post.

I see you have carefully decentered the view in your photos.
Nothing you show will affect the view.

Now tell us more ? :eek!:

Jerry

CarterMT · Dec 5, 2016

Jerry,

Yes, I tried to capture the false pupils (as I now know they are called), and decentering in the pic seemed like the best way to do that. I love these binoculars otherwise, but while using them today I couldn't seem to get my focus (no pun intended) away from the blurred light they create around the edges while getting the bins in place at my eyes. I am a bit embarrassed to admit it, but it kept irritating me. Once they're in place, everything looks good, but getting there is sort of unpleasant. I don't want to ask the good people I bought them from to take them back, but I'm not sure I'll be happy with them, either...

james holdsworth · Dec 5, 2016

Sounds like these reflections are visible as you move your eye into the eye-cup but disappear when you have your eyes fully seated? If so, maybe try lowering the eye-cup a tad and it should allow your eye to get closer to the eye-lens and [maybe] eliminate the stray light you are seeing.

I find even my very best bins show some reflections if held out too far from the eye, and these disappear when the binocular is brought in closer.Give it a try. Heck, even try backing OUT the eye-cups, you can never never be too certain just what is causing the problem.

ceasar · Dec 5, 2016

Carter,

I'm trying to understand what you mean when you say there is a "blurred light they create around the edges while getting the bins in place at my eyes." In your first post you say that the "blurry light would disappear as soon as I had the bins firmly in place."

My questions for you are: "How do you place the binocular at your eyes?" and; "Are you having problems finding your correct IPD?"

For myself, I pick the binocular up and I brace it firmly just under my eye brows and up against my brow ridge. (I've never seen any blurred light around the edges while doing this.) I do this at the same time as I am setting my IPD (inter pupillary distance) with the center hinge of the binocular.

With a 7x42, which has 6mm exit pupils, this is easy to do. Unless the day is very cloudy and dark one's pupils are usually quite a bit smaller than 6mm and they will fit easily inside the 6mm exit pupils cone of light.

For this reason I really like using my 7x42 binoculars. I have a couple of them and I find them very easy to use.

Bob

CarterMT · Dec 5, 2016

Bob,

I'm sorry about the confusion. It's that second or two when they're coming up against my eyes that is the issue. I almost can't ignore those false pupils until the bins are set under my brow. Once they're there, it's not a problem. I know that might sound kind of crazy, but after spending $2k, I'm sharply attuned to anything that doesn't feel right. Ironically, I bought these because I like a large exit pupil. They are otherwise a delight to look through. I'm just afraid that once it's too late to return them, I might wish I had. Again, the whole issue may just be that I haven't had this experience before; I have limited knowledge and experience, so I'm not sure what to do. I have some older Zeiss bins, as well as 32 mm Ultravids, and since neither of them do this, I noticed it today every time these new ones came up to my eyes.

I'm happy to learn that they're not defective, and maybe I am holding them to an unrealistic standard. I live in a rural area where I can't try before I buy, so I really wanted to give them a strong test run today, and this was something I constantly noticed. If I didn't have to work this week, I'd spend more time with them, and maybe decide it's not an issue for me. As it is, it'll be next weekend before I get to use them again...

CarterMT · Dec 5, 2016

James,

Thank you for your thoughts, as well. I played around with the eye cups, but it didn't seem to change much. I think that the crux of it is that the optics I have been using for years don't do this; like a random spider on the wall, I can't help but notice!

peatmoss · Dec 5, 2016

Hello Carter, and welcome to the forum! As Bob pointed out those areas at 5 and 7 o'clock are false pupils. These are internal reflections from the prisms. I have two trinovids (both 42s) and two ultravids (a 32 and a 42) and those false pupils always appear around 5 and 7 o'clock (for my ipd). For what it's worth, plenty of binoculars have similar false pupils, sometime many more. With a 6mm exit pupil, you ought to be able to avoid having them pollute your view under most lighting conditions. Give these bins a few more days, and if it's still bothering you, then move on to a different pair of binoculars. No use lingering on a binocular which does not "fit" your way of viewing.

Troubador · Dec 5, 2016

Carter

I can only repeat what others have said: these kinds of false pupils and other similar phenomena are very common. Manufacturers don't seem to worry about them because they are outside the cone of light that you access when you are using the bins.

I can understand that trying to ignore these is like trying not to think about elephants after someone has said 'don't think about elephants', but the point is these false pupils don't signify that anything is wrong, they are a characteristic not a fault.

Good luck, stay cool and concentrate on the birds (or whatever) not the bins.

Lee

14Goudvink · Dec 5, 2016

Have you tried narrowing the IPD by closing the hinge a bit?

I used to have a bin with very bright false pupils which flashed at me every time I brought the bins to my eyes. I got used to it (didn't notice it any more), probably by automatically shutting my eyes for a split second when putting the bins to my eyes. When I didn't use the bins for a while I had the false pupils happily and brightly flashing at me again.

I never noticed this phenomena with the Leica Ultravid 7x42 BR I used to have. Probably because Leica's false pupils are not so bright.

If it keeps bothering you you could try the blink-while-you-bring-the-bins-to-your-eyes trick. You won't miss a thing (except the false pupils, hopefully)

George

jgraider · Dec 5, 2016

If I spent $2k on a binocular, and it had a characteristic that annoyed me every time I looked through it, I'd return it and get something that works better. I did this very thing when I bought an 8x32SV, only to be constantly irritated by the glare issues.

I assure you there are plenty of good glass around for $2k or less that will make you completely happy.

ceasar · Dec 5, 2016

I have 2 Leica binoculars and I don't see false pupils in either one. One is a Leica 7x42 Trinovid BN which was replaced by Leica with the Leica 7x42 Ultravids you have. The 17.1mm eye relief remained unchanged but the eye cup design in the Ultravids were changed to give the viewers a choice of 3 positions to chose while using the binocular. The eyecups on your 7x42 should have these 3 positions. Can you see the false pupils from all 3 positions when the binocular is away from your eyes?

I don't see false pupils in my Leica 8x42 Ultravid BL either. It also has 3 position eye cups and 15.5mm eye relief.

I was wondering if you could contact the place where you purchased your 7x42 from and ask them to check one of their 7x42s to find out if they can see false pupils in it? If not, you may be able to exchange yours for another one.

Bob

A2GG · Dec 5, 2016

Hi Carter,

I have the 7x42 Ultravid+ and I just took a look and I do notice the false exit pupils.
I never noticed them before reading this thread. I can see the issue when the bino is held an inch or so from my glasses, but once they touch my eyeglasses it's normal viewing. I also tried without wearing my glasses and turning the eyecups out and had the same result; once up to my eyes in a suitable position the view is normal.

This is a non-issue to me, but if the way you hold the binocular up to your eyes doesn't make the issue go away then I can understand being bothered by that. However, when you have the bin up to your eyes in a suitable position and the problem is erased (view is normal) then I wouldn't worry about it. Since you discovered the false pupils maybe you are looking at the oculars too much when bringing the bin up to your eyes. I usually scan for birds and movement with naked eyes and then bring the bin up to my eyes while concentrating more on the direction of the bird so I don't lose it ... I just don't seem to notice the oculars when bringing them up except maybe for a split second for eye positioning. I'm just not aware of the issue like you are in general practice in the field.

If you use it out in the field and can't get past it then maybe return the binocular. Top quality 7x42's aren't exactly growing on trees so maybe give it a good chance before deciding to return it.

Troubador · Dec 5, 2016

GiGi makes an excellent point: alpha level 7x bins are pretty scarce now and don't look as though they will make a come-back any time soon.

Lee

JerryLogan · Dec 5, 2016

So by now you know that you're seeing false pupils. These are usually a design compromise induced by a desire to squeeze the maximum field of view out of an eyepiece. The eyepiece aperture is left rather wide so the glass can gather wider views but it also means stray light and secondary images are also captured. Many designers are willing to live with this since, as you've noticed, it doesn't interfere with the well-centered final view and it allows the widest possible fov for the eyepiece design.

If you cannot live with it (and there's no shame in that, $2k is a heavy price to pay when you can be annoyed for free just by driving down the nearest freeway), then the Maven B2 7x45 may be ideal. It's not a Leica but it's half the price for pretty much the same view - without false pupils.

Best of luck,
Jerry

henry link · Dec 5, 2016

I would be cautious about rejecting the Leica because of false pupils that are quite harmlessly hidden behind the eyepiece field stop once your eyes are at the proper eye relief distance and reasonably well centered. Leica binoculars are actually the best of the alphas at baffling the truly damaging internal reflections that come from the objective lens and focusing lens cells. It's those reflections, not false pupils, that are the main sources of glare and loss of contrast when the eye pupils are correctly positioned for viewing.

ceasar · Dec 5, 2016

JerryLogan said:
So by now you know that you're seeing false pupils. These are usually a design compromise induced by a desire to squeeze the maximum field of view out of an eyepiece. The eyepiece aperture is left rather wide so the glass can gather wider views but it also means stray light and secondary images are also captured. Many designers are willing to live with this since, as you've noticed, it doesn't interfere with the well-centered final view and it allows the widest possible fov for the eyepiece design.

If you cannot live with it (and there's no shame in that, $2k is a heavy price to pay when you can be annoyed for free just by driving down the nearest freeway), then the Maven B2 7x45 may be ideal. It's not a Leica but it's half the price for pretty much the same view - without false pupils.

Best of luck,
Jerry

Jerry,

You should see the size of the false pupils my Zeiss 7x42 Victory FL has!:eek!: It uses AK prisms like the Maven 7x45 B2. They are huge compared to what is shown in the Leica 7x42 pictures above. I have never noticed any stray light and secondary images while using my Victory FL and I use it nearly every day.

It has a FOV of 450'@1000yds which is a lot larger than the Leica 7x42 has at 420'@1000yds and a lot larger than Maven 7x45 B2 has at 388'@1000 yds. That might make the compromise of "false pupils" worth it to a lot of people.

Bob

Help with new Ultravids (1 Viewer)

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