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Urban Birder on Countryfile (1 Viewer)

Farnboro John

Well-known member
David Lindo extolling urban birding on Countryfile this morning.

So apparently urban birding is not about identification, just enjoying the birds.

Sorry, that's not birding. If you aren't interested enough to try to find out what you are watching you aren't birding. You're not even duding. You are a grockle.

If that's your bag, fine. Its just not birding.

I also object to it on the grounds that it is promoting ignorance. There is never any excuse for that. "It's cool to know nothing" is ironic for goodness' sake!

John
 
David Lindo extolling urban birding on Countryfile this morning.

So apparently urban birding is not about identification, just enjoying the birds.

Sorry, that's not birding. If you aren't interested enough to try to find out what you are watching you aren't birding. You're not even duding. You are a grockle.

If that's your bag, fine. Its just not birding.

I also object to it on the grounds that it is promoting ignorance. There is never any excuse for that. "It's cool to know nothing" is ironic for goodness' sake!

John

Blimey, I am still in the process of waking up and I have missed Countryfile already?
 
I watched a different countryfile this evening then?? Weird.

David Lindo extolling urban birding on Countryfile this morning.

So apparently urban birding is not about identification, just enjoying the birds.

Sorry, that's not birding. If you aren't interested enough to try to find out what you are watching you aren't birding. You're not even duding. You are a grockle.

If that's your bag, fine. Its just not birding.

I also object to it on the grounds that it is promoting ignorance. There is never any excuse for that. "It's cool to know nothing" is ironic for goodness' sake!

John

Didn't see it but are you saying it doesn't even come under 'birdwatching'?

I'm assuming appealing to the lowest common denominator is just a starting point, identifying and looking further into will follow in due course.

I think it is true that the listing/identifying/recording aspect can become more important than just the enjoyment of being there and watching. For example I do feel shamed occasionally by the old people feeding the local Robin as I go past with most of my senses attuned to the other 15 or more species I'm trying to fleetingly pick up in the area. (But not much).
 
Well, what I read from David Lindo *is* birding, and it seems he was a guide to foreigners who came to my country for birding trips.

I *guess* what he wanted to say the number of species recorded is fairly low in urban areas (my eBird patch named "Parks of city center" has 18 breeding species and some of them are from the largest park that is more diverse habitat-wise than the others), they are all extremely easy to identify at species level, and you spend most of the time watching the birds' behavior (a crow is dropping a yogurt cup from a tree trying to break it, a crow is chasing a kestrel, a crow is arguing with a magpie, swifts fly around, house martins fly around, collared dove sits on wire and coos, black redstart sings, kestrel makes noise, startled pigeons circle around, rooks are sitting on their nests, pair of jackdaws walks together, woodpigeon makes that gliding flight etc.)
 
I watched a different countryfile this evening then?? Weird.



Didn't see it but are you saying it doesn't even come under 'birdwatching'?

I'm assuming appealing to the lowest common denominator is just a starting point, identifying and looking further into will follow in due course.

I think it is true that the listing/identifying/recording aspect can become more important than just the enjoyment of being there and watching. For example I do feel shamed occasionally by the old people feeding the local Robin as I go past with most of my senses attuned to the other 15 or more species I'm trying to fleetingly pick up in the area. (But not much).

To be honest, yes. Even a Robin-stroker knows what a Robin is. And has a bird book (= field guide) for difficult species like Coal Tit. The listing doesn't have to be there at all but I continue to contend that without the curiosity to at least find out what you are looking at you are not birdwatching let alone birding.

John
 
Well, what I read from David Lindo *is* birding, and it seems he was a guide to foreigners who came to my country for birding trips.

I *guess* what he wanted to say the number of species recorded is fairly low in urban areas (my eBird patch named "Parks of city center" has 18 breeding species and some of them are from the largest park that is more diverse habitat-wise than the others), they are all extremely easy to identify at species level, and you spend most of the time watching the birds' behavior (a crow is dropping a yogurt cup from a tree trying to break it, a crow is chasing a kestrel, a crow is arguing with a magpie, swifts fly around, house martins fly around, collared dove sits on wire and coos, black redstart sings, kestrel makes noise, startled pigeons circle around, rooks are sitting on their nests, pair of jackdaws walks together, woodpigeon makes that gliding flight etc.)

No, if he'd given that impression I would not have said anything. You have a generous nature.

John
 
Oh do me a favour,it was a short piece ,aimed at the masses who watch countryside every week to get them to realise there's more than the odd starling in built up areas.
He said "Birding in cities is not about identifying half the time,it's about enjoying the experience"
And he is right.
Seems very pedantic to pick up on what he said and twist it that he says it's nothing about identification,which any sensible individual would know that's not what he really meant.
 
Oh do me a favour,it was a short piece ,aimed at the masses who watch countryside every week to get them to realise there's more than the odd starling in built up areas.
He said "Birding in cities is not about identifying half the time,it's about enjoying the experience"
And he is right.
Seems very pedantic to pick up on what he said and twist it that he says it's nothing about identification,which any sensible individual would know that's not what he really meant.

If you want people to realise there's more than the odd Starling then its a weird approach to dismiss the idea of putting names to the birds. Oh there's a bird. Dunno what it is, and it doesn't matter. Oh there's another bird, different I think, but who cares. I must just feel the enjoyment. What enjoyment? That there's a bird in a city at all? Is that the objective of the current race to the bottom, that we should be glad anything, never mind what, can get by on our increasingly crowded, polluted, abominations of cities? Thank heavens for Feral Pigeons, everybody, feel the joy.

I checked the dialogue. Your bit is correct but he goes on to say "don't worry about identification, just enjoy the experience" - and we are right back to "Its cool to know nothing". Its not. And its not cool to promote knowing nothing. People go on about the natural curiosity of children and how it should be encouraged - better keep this bloke out of the way then, he's the exact opposite of David Attenborough et al.

John
 
but he is not saying that,he is merely stating,in a very short clip that enjoyment of just seeing the birds in a suburban area is the important thing,identification is secondary,the fact that birds are in suburban areas is the real issue,of course people want to know what the birds are,thats human nature but dont turn it into a witch hunt against the bloke because he had about 20 seconds to talk amd may not of come across exactly how you liked him to
 
but he is not saying that,he is merely stating,in a very short clip that enjoyment of just seeing the birds in a suburban area is the important thing,identification is secondary,the fact that birds are in suburban areas is the real issue,of course people want to know what the birds are,thats human nature but dont turn it into a witch hunt against the bloke because he had about 20 seconds to talk amd may not of come across exactly how you liked him to

I don't have a problem with him doing whatever he wants as long as he doesn't call it birding.

And it didn't start as a witch hunt, I was just disappointed with his input. Doubly so as Ms Bradbury bigged up his ID skills and he then made them out to be unimportant rather than being at the heart of birding, which they are. Identification is the starting point of all birding experiences. Until you know what you are watching how can you appreciate what its doing, understand the context of your sighting, utilise that big human brain to have an experience? To just watch a bird as a splash of colour against a background of cityscape is to be a tourist at the "if its Tuesday this must be Belgium" level.

John
 
Identification is the starting point of all birding experiences.
John

I didn't see the episode so not commenting on it though I did attend a talk by Trevor Gunton many years ago and he was saying the same thing. Whether it was to appease the typical RSPB membership at the time I don't know. He went on to say that the birds themselves don't know what they're called so why should it matter?

I'm not sure the records committees would appreciate hundreds of record submissions of 'bird' though, and how would conservation work? The more names we can put on birds the better in my opinion, Macqueen's Bustard being a case in point.
 
What is birding though????
It depends on who's or what terminology you use.
The amount of non birding folk who speak to me about birds and call me a. "Twitcher" only for me to readdress them and tell them that I am only a part time twitcher and that I am a birder is ridiculous.
To the masses we are all twitchers ,but twitchers to the masses means birdwatchers,birders,etc etc.
I do get what you are saying john but the reality is that birders or the name is synonymous with anyone who likes to go out in the field and watch the odd bird ,at least that's what 99% of country file viewers think
 
I didn't see the episode so not commenting on it though I did attend a talk by Trevor Gunton many years ago and he was saying the same thing. Whether it was to appease the typical RSPB membership at the time I don't know. He went on to say that the birds themselves don't know what they're called so why should it matter?

I'm not sure the records committees would appreciate hundreds of record submissions of 'bird' though, and how would conservation work? The more names we can put on birds the better in my opinion, Macqueen's Bustard being a case in point.

Of course and point taken but this was just about making people aware that the birds are there,watch them,feel them and when you know they are there the person may just start to learn more about them , including their names.
It's introducing people to the birds in a very simplistic way.
Most people think we have. 30-40 species of bird in this country with a few rareties thrown in every few years,.most are completely shocked when I tell them how many we really have
 
Of course and point taken but this was just about making people aware that the birds are there,watch them,feel them and when you know they are there the person may just start to learn more about them , including their names.
It's introducing people to the birds in a very simplistic way.
Most people think we have. 30-40 species of bird in this country with a few rareties thrown in every few years,.most are completely shocked when I tell them how many we really have

There you are - its the educative experience that thrills! Blobs pall quickly.

John
 
Rather enjoyable.
I am not saying that the naming of birds is unimportant or secondary for everyone,but I think John is making too much of the original comment and taken it too literally.
We must remember that Countryfile is a programme in prime time tv which gets a very large audience,the majority of which probably don't bird.
 
Rather enjoyable.
I am not saying that the naming of birds is unimportant or secondary for everyone,but I think John is making too much of the original comment and taken it too literally.
We must remember that Countryfile is a programme in prime time tv which gets a very large audience,the majority of which probably don't bird.

So is the news, in which you expect (hope) journalists are going to inform you honestly and accurately about things that you don't know about. I'm struggling to see why a fact-based programme like Countryfile should be different.

John
 
But it's a 30 second clip and when you posted the original complaint I think you missed his comment "not all the time "which admittedly was faint in the interview.
Think we will have to agree to disagree.
Don't get me wrong, I do see the point you are making and if the programme was one about actual birding and trying to get people involved in birding then I would agree with you,but he is not trying to get people birding , he is merely trying to get people in cities to be more aware and I am sure he would tell people who wanted to become more interested that identification is then key
 
Just to put a different slant on this for a sec, if it was me, (which God forbid) I would be emphasising how much city birders already know, as a platform to build on. Like you, I've heard people saying they don't know many birds (a typical self assessment will be about ten) but with a bit of encouragement most realise they know more than that, the following being pretty universal:

Robin, Blackbird, Blue Tit, Great Tit, Woodpigeon, Crow, Magpie, Jay, Mallard, Canada (or the tooth-grinding "Canadian") Goose, Mute Swan, Black-headed Gull, Kestrel, House Sparrow, Starling, [Grey] Heron, Puffin.

These days many people have also heard of Red Kites, Ospreys, and people in particular parts of the country will recognise Yellowhammers, Tysties, Greylags, Golden Eagles, Buzzards, Yaffles.

Lots also have some generic knowledge of woodpeckers, doves, owls and so on.

You build their interest and confidence not by telling them its cool to know nothing but by showing them that they already know something and that they can build on that and its fun to do so.

Of course its not all easy, but the challenge is part of the fun.

John
 
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