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Kensington Gardens Yellow-legged Gull (1 Viewer)

JANJ said:
Yellow-legged Gull is preferable, but is it atlantis, or a well marked michahellis, or something which I dare not mention...
JanJ
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What is the something you dare not mention, Jan? Is there another LWHG taxon which could fit?

Graham
 
marklhawkes said:
None proven. None accepted. Several reported!
Click to expand...

which tells something about BOU/local RCs' policy but maybe not so much about real likelyness of occurence. i'd expect them to show up from time to time in ireland, though they are resident, but with the frequency of western gales...however - if it is one it is a major find for london! :clap:
 
bitterntwisted said:
What is the something you dare not mention, Jan? Is there another LWHG taxon which could fit?

Graham
Click to expand...

Graham,

I meant hybrid, the one birders take on when they fail to identify a bird. ;)

JanJ
 
Well if I saw the bird down here I would def say "WTF?!"

If this is a Y.L.G. (and if you exclude the head. Looks ok for one, though it was probably born near a Nuclear Plant...) I wouldn't call it of the race we get around here.

Perhaps this quote from this link will help (Lou posted it earlier):

http://www.nrossiter.supanet.com/ylg/available statistics biometrics.htm

"There is remarkable homogeneity between the various atlantis forms. No separation of the forms is possible on the biometrics alone. The Azores form is not differentiated at all from the other forms of atlantis on biometrics.
There is remarkable similarity between the overall data for atlantis and the data for graellsii and argenteus.
There is a substantial difference between the overall data for atlantis and the data for michahellis."

So unideable imo atm...Maybe it will be easier once it moults to summer plumage??
 
to the contrary, dimi. once it has a white head again (that's how i saw them down in teneriffa) there's not much left to differenciate it from nominate race except on structural differences. i think the ones from the azores are darker mantled approaching graellsii in tone. what makes this peculiar bird look like an atlantis is the conspicous 'hood'.
 
Just to have a look at some different Yellow-legged.

http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=175&show_thumbnails=False

Check the ones from Azores (probably some 'michahellis' among the atlantis)
and notice the shorther legged appearance and shorter wing of many and more black in wing tip (and darker upperparts)

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull website/atlainx.html

And these from Azores:

http://www.pbase.com/dophoto/saomiguel&page=all

http://azores.seawatching.net/index.php?page=onespecies&id=647

http://madeira.seawatching.net/species/Lar_mic_atl/index.html

http://www.pbase.com/upupa/image/57302742

http://www.pbase.com/upupa/image/56915717

http://www.pbase.com/upupa/image/56454983

http://www.pbase.com/upupa/image/65218288

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=13611

JanJ
 
bitterntwisted said:
Oh, Jan. I wish you hadn't asked. Per previous posts, I don't really do gulls yet, I still have easier IDs to master (spent two hours yesterday in the company of Willow and Marsh Tits) Olsen and Larsen is coming for Christmas, and Collins doesn't cut it, but let's see, for entertainment's sake, how I'm coming along:

Age: The bird is full adult (which is a great starter!)
Mantle: Slate grey or darker (and the comments say darker), suggest intermedius rather than graellsi if the bird is LBBG. Too dark for argenteus, argentatus, michahellis, and apparently cachinnans (which I have not seen) and may be consistent with other LWHG taxa I don't know.
Head Streaking: Too extensive for michahellis, too dark for Herring taxa, is heavy, dark and extends in front of eye which is not classic for graellsi or intermedius?
Legs: Presumably yellow, hence YLG identification, but not shown in this photo. If they were now pinkish would Chris not have noted this?
Bill: Red spot limited to lower mandible consistent with all but michahellis of familiar taxa, but this is not a very reliable feature? Gonydeal angle criteria not understood by me. Ditto forehead angle which from one photo is consistent with all familiar taxa?
Primary Tips/Windows: Appear too small for Herring, and possibly too large for LBBG. Best fit seems to be YLG?
Eye: No clear orbital ring would suggest LBBG rather than YLG or Herring?

Conclusion: LWHG viewed singly on computer monitor appears to show (from photos and accounts) features which are not universally consistent with any familiar taxa occuring with greatest frequency in UK. (graellsi, intermedius, argenteus, argentatus, michahellis, marinus, glaucoides, hyperboreus) Neither does it fit, based on my limited literature, fuscus, armenicus, cachinnans, heuglini.

Conclusion 2: It's a Sea Gull. I don't know what kind.

What is it really and why? It's a lesser black-backed, isn't it Jan? Or you wouldn't have asked? :h?: :h?: :h?:

Graham
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apologies for going quiet - didn't mean to set the hairs running and smugly sit at home

For what its worth - in life didn't think there was anything about the bird which would make one think it wasn't a Mich. Photo taken on a sunny day which has made the mantle look darker than in life. Another photo which hopefully shows why not a graellsii.

Structure looks ok for Mich to me – but must admit fail to see any meaningful difference in structure between Mich and Atlantis in many of the photos – may be more obvious in life.

To answer another query - had yellow legs

Also attach an image of a YLG taken at the same park ealier in the summer. Personally don't think is the same bird - as didn't see the head streaking gradualy develop - but don't get gown to Kensington Gardens as much as others - so happy to be corrected.


Chris
 

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Must say having seen the photos of the head streaking I was surprised that the bird could be a michahellis, as I didn't think they show this such pronounced head streaking, greyish streaks as opposed to brownish (pers obs & in litt). Adult michahellis in Derbyshire have generally completed their moult by now with little/no obvious head streaking noted.

Stunning photos of the primary pattern, assume it is a 'YLG' and not a LBBGxHG hybrid as it has a band on p5 and even a smudge on p4. Interesting to hear what Lou and JanJ say about it now....
 
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hi,

those are really really great photos, congrats to fraser simpson!
it still is definitely a larus michahellis, YLG.
and i must say, after having read carefully about azorean form of ssp. 'atlantis' most features fit: shortish, robust legs, the typical "hood" formed by thin brownish streaks with white at the back of head, quite a long gonys (distance between the angle and tip of lower mandible), only smallish mirror in p10, no mirror in p9, darkish upperparts with blueish tingue (more so than nominate) - but i'm aware that this is a photo (concerning colour variation!) and we'd need direct comparison to a "normal michahellis". also, according to 'gulls' by olsen, primary moult should be finished by mid october! maybe a bit later due to it being far from "home"??? - after all, and if i was in a RC i really had a hard time to accept it 100% as a Larus michahellis atlantis - a major rarity, just because i don't know all the variation in nominate michahellis.
 
Nice set of images on Fraser´s site! I would say that ving pattern matches many michahellis, but also graellsii (!), and atlantis, although I dont think it´s a LBBG (pale and with michahellis blunt-tipped bill) The interesting thing about this gull is the short looking legs and the well streaked head, which in these new images doesn´t seem to give the 'hooded' appearance as in the first image, which is a pro atlantis feature, or closer by, like Canary Islands or Madeira where some are lighter streaked. On the underwing I think perhaps that the grey on primaries and secondaries could have been a trifle darker, but that is from looking at the images.
The gull with raised wings in Chris post above seems to be the same gull, judging from the pattern of p4, p5 and p6. Check these adults again from the Azores and notice the pattern of the primaries, the number of black primaries and the amount of black in each primary, also including p4.

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull website/atlap09.html

If seen in the Azores or elsewhere in the region I would have noticed this as atlantis (head streaking and leg lenght, though have seen michahellis in southern France and elsewhere with similar shorth looking legs (tibia).
In Britain, it´s more difficult since graellsii has a similar primary pattern, but p-pattern is a variable character.

JanJ
 
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I had a good long look at this gull today, but can't really shed any more light on the matter.

I got a good direct comparison with a common gull, such that the mantle colour was comfortably darker than common gull (i reckon michahellis is generally about the same as common gull), but is still way paler than the LBBGs which were around, though not directly alongside.

Of note is that what was presumably the same bird appeared to be closely paired with a LBB Gull during the summer, although it is unknown if they actually bred together.

Are there many records of LBB Gull/YL Gull hybridisation, and, if so, what have the hybrids looked like?
 
aythya_hybrid said:
Are there many records of LBB Gull/YL Gull hybridisation, and, if so, what have the hybrids looked like?
Click to expand...

On a similar note, Andy Lawson and I found this gull on Saturday 4th November on the south side of the River Thames at Greenhithe (3rd, 4th and 5th shots down): -

http://www.freewebs.com/richbonser/recentphotographs.htm

Coming away from the site we were somewhat perplexed, and showing the shots to a few people the hybrid conclusion has been the overwhelming response. The photos I've whacked on my website are those that most accurately portray the mantle colour of this individual.

It's always extremely difficult to know the parents of a hybrid in the affirmative - I would thought it would take a rather bold birder to differentiate between a LBB/Herring and a LBB/Yl Gull hybrid. And then it's a case of what generation of hybrid.

It's certainly all interesting stuff...

All the best and good birding

Rich
 
Hello Rich,

Here is a very nasty Hybrid Paul Hackett and i had at Killybegs last November. LBBG X HERRING we think.

Derek
 

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DEREK CHARLES said:
Hello Rich,
Here is a very nasty Hybrid Paul Hackett and i had at Killybegs last November. LBBG X HERRING we think.
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Hi Derek

Killybegs is lovely for hybrids. Over the years, two interesting birds stick out from my visits to that site - one, a brute of a bird, was a 1st winter Glauc x Herring (or possibly a 'Nelson's Gull' - Glauc x Yank Herring) that I believe Paul Hackett/Garry Taylor photographed.

The second, and more on this topic, was in Feb/March 2003 (same trip as the first if I remember correctly) and an adult that returned for a couple of winters if my memory serves me correctly. I believe that initially there were mootings that this was an 'atlantis' Yellow-legged Gull but opinion switched in the end to a LBBxHerring hybrid. My notes are at home so I can't go into much more detail though I do recall it to be heavily streaked on the head and similar in appearance to your bird bar its yellow legs.

Cheers and good birding

Rich
 
Hello Rich,

It might possibly be the same bird. Last years bird the legs appeared to have a yellowish tinge. When i sent pics to local gull watchers here , they thought it was probably the same bird. Here is what i assume is a Glauc x Herring hybrid from Killybegs last February.

Derek
 

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