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When a new Leica binocular? (1 Viewer)

Bob:

I suppose we can all dream about what the uber types will come out with
next. Leica may be watching, and so I would expect them to continue with
the very fine crafted quality, fancy, with leather types, the silverline was over the top, and I think a Trinovid midrange, would be just the thing to help get this brand kickstarted.

Zeiss is very German, just the utilitarian rubber type, no style, they lost
that with the Design Selection series from the 90's. I suppose some may
call it boring.

Swarovski is in the middle, biggest seller of the high end, great optics,
great ergonomics, the pace setter, just take a look at all of the clones.
Who do they copy? It is follow the leader.

I do hope this post will add to the discussion. ;)

Jerry


Interesting comments! Your summary of the brands is very close to my perception. Swaroski has been a trend setter in both binoculars and riflescopes in the past decade.

Regarding Leica bringing out a second tire. They once did this and it didn't work well. They bought the Minux brand and used it as their second tire but it looks like it didn't work so they get read of it. Note that Leica is a very small company and managing multiple lines of products is perhaps not very practical for them.
 
Ahhhhh, I have agreement from The ADL Sir Rantsalot (Attention Deficit Leader) on one point. Jab freely at me if it’s for fun and if the jabs are actually painful let me know and I will stop. You can use flibbertigibbet as your safe word.

It’s pretty clear why your indoors on a rainy day. You have unsealed poros! Good opportunity to use the time to try and blow the dust off the prisms again.

I have to say poking your nose into the finances of binocular purchasers and gaming out how and why they are paying for their bins is a deep reach into a dark hole and Id be happy to tell you where that hole is located.

Let’s get the train back on the tracks.

One point I am not clear on. You said you spent $250 to $550 per bin. If you do that 10 times your in an alpha land spend. What was your total spend to get to these (buying and selling others like the Zens).

You agree the Alphas at $2000+ do indeed add about 10% to the overall image. We are on the same page on that point. I rest my case. You are in no position to put a value on that for other people any more than I am.

In my opinion most of that 10% is in improved viewing in the adverse conditions viewing (a priceless quality for me). If one agrees with the prior sentence as I do, then the uber bins provide a (dare I use the term) “superior image” (BUT not a superior birder) at an added price. Hence I am getting what I paid for and I am no better a person or worse a person than anyone else with binoculars in their hand. (I usually don’t go through such lengths as this but in this case its clearly needed)

As far the cost vs value – that is an individual choice. Sounds more like your judging my choice than I am judging your choice. I was happy with $150 bins for years and learned a huge amount with them. I can make almost as many IDs with them (lacking color, lots of missed birds due to flair and internal reflection especially in December when the sun is low in the sky). I used them today and enjoyed views a Great Horned Owl pair I am tolerated by if I keep my distance right. They are hanging around the same area on the property where I work and stay within hooting distance of each other. It’s really a treat to see them a couple of times a week.

The other yammering and the hair ball jumble about status bino’ers is totally unsubstantiated bull crap in my opinion. Prestige from binoculars? Total manure. Monsters from the id?

In contrast I have found birders to be the most unmaterialistic, eco minded, outdoors people I have ever met. They are the most helpful and patient with new birders no matter what binoculars they are holding. Were you mistreated by binocular fashionista when you attended the “big sit”? Did a Swaro owner ask you to leave the platform or something (or did everyone)? If so maybe it was for some other reason than your bins or theirs. Did you start ranting and call them binocular snobs when they tried to teach you an ID or something. Maybe you can describe some of these invisible voices your hearing.



Regarding Omids points:
I agree there has been no huge optical leap recently. But that is different from no substantial progress overall.

Binoculars are the last to get the spillover from the huge camera industry. Flourite glass was available on cameras in the late 1970s. It took 30 years to to be implemented on binoculars. When I look into a pair of bins from 10 years ago under good conditions the ED glass Leicas do show some improvement. But the biggest improvements for me are is low light, color, chromatic aberration control, flare, ghosting etc. even Grandpa's bins produce a good image in perfect condtions. Try a backlighting situation and you will think you are looking at the sun.

I am willing to guarantee the optics industry is producing superior optics for NASA, and the Defense Department they are not sharing with us today, but may one day soon be in our bins.

100% light transmission is great but not unless you have eliminated the stray light and internal reflections first. Same for less than 100%. There is still more work to do.

Sure the Chinese binocular makers can slap some inferior ED glass on the latest bin with a dozen brand labels on it. But as Zen proved – The end result will be good and may push the performance at that price but its not a Leica, Swarovski or Zeiss or Nikon. Your going to pay more for the best if you desire it. Its not a requirement but its there if you want it.

Looking in the rear view mirror I see no lack of recent innovation regarding flagship binoculars. Just a steady stream of improvements I am grateful for. In total they add up to a much improved image IMO. It appears the rate of binocular improvements have increased greatly in the past few years compared to the past when inovation was much slower.

How long did we wait for "a" coated elememt? Then a coating that did not wash off with cleaning fluid (oops). Then multiple coated elements. Then multi coating on each element... How quickly we forget:

Sealing (good bye dust and lint on the prisms and glass)
Nitrogen (good bye mold and fungus on the prisms etc).
Waterproof (good bye fogging and water splashing around and problems with temperature changes)
Submersible (hello fish)
Magnesium, titanium, composite materials.
Lighter weight
Durability. I am not criticizing poros but roofs have a much better reliability reputation. I can speak for the Leicas I am using – a fine example of German precision engineering.
Compact size – binoculars seem to be shrinking
Rubber armor (less dents)
Coating continue to improve. The HDs I am using have something like 47 layers of coatings on the prism. Number of coating and improvements seem to go up with every release.
Blacking of the edges of the prism and glass to reduce reflection (on Leica, not sure who else)
Better glass in the prisms
Dilectric
More reflective prisms
Better coatings on the lenses/better glass air reflection control
Flourite glass
Flare and ghosting appears to be diminishing more and more on the new top end models.
Chromatic aberration is disappearing. It was so bad in a pair of Zeiss Conquests I had, I sold them and did not buy the FLs that followed because I was so bitter about the Conquest!
Color is improving (in my opinion) due to ED glass on the models I am looking at.
At least on the Leica HD the focus uses Dry Teflon lube. at zero F temps they are as smooth and easy (one finger) as they are on a warm day. I have tried some greased mechanisms at the same zero temps and the owner might want to start a finger exercise program.
Better light absorbing materials and baffles in the tubes.
Better engineering and closer tolerances.
Better glass production and mixtures
Ect.



For now – my LED flash light has an anti reflective coating on the lens. I am hoping they will remove the reflection from my eyeball on the next release along with other improvements!
 
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...The apex was reached there and nothing more can be done....

I have been wondering about this.

Now, not saying that any apex has been reached,

and not in anyway commenting on the respective merits of either the Teutonic Trinity nor the Shanghai Express, and ergonomics aside;

Hypothetically,

Would not the characteristics of the human eye, place a limit on the degree of contrast and resolution visible at a given magnification and aperture combination?
and, that any optical advancement after that point might involve digital tech to enter into extending the perceived spectrum of light?
 
Hypothetically,

Would not the characteristics of the human eye, place a limit on the degree of contrast and resolution visible at a given magnification and aperture combination?
and, that any optical advancement after that point might involve digital tech to enter into extending the perceived spectrum of light?

Jay,

Yes, but. Digital "improvements" are possibly questionable. Both my wife and I have decided we don't even like HDTV too much because of its sheer exaggeration. At times it's painful to watch, not natural, not pleasing. That ain't what it's like "being there." Borderline psychedelic maybe.

So give me reality, best as you can, and I guess that means analogue. In that regard we are reaching the logical limits. Look through an SV and see what those limits look like. They are really nice.

Brock,

When I say "amortize," I assume no credit is involved. Short of a house, maybe a car, I don't buy on credit. Hey, no harm done: give me my Zen 8x43 ED2 and I'm out the door. But if you amortize the full $2349 asking price of an SV over two years you can't buy a daily latte at Starbucks for the same amount. Sounds like a bargain to me.

tvc15,

You're right. Birders are generally not too materialistic. We drive Subarus a lot. Here in PA, my wife and I joke every time we see another white Subie like ours: "Oh look, another damn cliche!"

Mark
 
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A modern version of the Leitz 7x35 Trinovids would be nice.
Since purchasing a SV 8.5x42s last year, I have not been considering any further binocular purchases but a modern 7x35 would be very tempting as they are beautiful binoculars.
Ben.
 
Optics junkies got to have their "fix," and they like to test different binoculars as much as they like to bird. Right, Frank? :)

You just love to stick my name in here and there just so I respond...don't you? And, of course, I always take the bait.

;)

Yes, I enjoy buying and trying different binoculars as much as birding. Truth be told my "birding time" is fairly limited these days. After the new home is finished I will have more time to view all the wonderful birds across the beautiful country side. Having two ponds within sight of my home should help with my waterfowl Id'ing skills immensely.

To add to your discussion though....after numerous...numeorous purchases I have reached clarity and the undeniable truth. There is no perfect binocular. There is no "the one"....

...at least for me. There is just compromises and preferences. Right now my preferences are for 7x35 ultrawide angle binos.

Anybody producing those these days?

;)
 
I have been wondering about this.
Now, not saying that any apex has been reached,
Hypothetically, Would not the characteristics of the human eye, place a limit on the degree of contrast and resolution visible at a given magnification and aperture combination? and, that any optical advancement after that point might involve digital tech to enter into extending the perceived spectrum of light?

You are saying that even if there is still room to improve certain optical charactristics of a binoculars, those improvements might not be appreciated or even preceived much by human eye. I agree with you. One example is light transmission. For good Alpha binoculars, we are at 95%-98% transmission. The best you can do is to make this 100%. Human eye responds lograithmically to light intensity not linearly so the few percent gain here would be barely perceptible. So, when it comes to light transmission, the apex has already been achieved.

Some of us (myself included) have been arguing that this is the case in several other key charactristics of binoculars too (e.g., chromatic abberations, field curvature, etc.) We are eighter at the physical limit of fidelity or very close to it. There is little room for further progress.

While we are at the "apex", it is worth mentioning that the apex here is not a singular peak. It is a plateau created by multiple factors. These factors can not be imroved all to create a definite "maximal solution". One factor can be traded for the other to crate a set of Pareto Optimal solution. These are all top solutions, one just has a little bit more of this and a bit less of that.. None of these solutions is clearly above the other, just like the Leica, Nikon and Swarovski binoculars we have now.. and it's a good thing. If we had a single maximal solution, then this forum did not need to exist :)
 
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You are saying that even if there is still room to improve certain optical charactristics of a binoculars, those improvements might not be appreciated or even preceived much by human eye. I agree with you. One example is light transmission.

We are eighter at the physical limit of fidelity or very close to it. There is little room for further progress.

I think you´re right about light transmission, only a little improvement can be done. The same in contrast (Swarovision has a little better contrast than Zeiss and Leica).

But Leica must improve so much about CA, at least like Zeiss and Swarovski.
And Leica and Zeiss must greatly improve their edges sharpness.

This is at least what Leica and Zeiss need to achieve the same level as Swarovski.
 
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I think you´re right about light transmission, only a little improvement can be done. The same in contrast (Swarovision has a little better contrast than Zeiss and Leica).

But Leica must improve so much about CA, at least like Zeiss and Swarovski.
And Leica and Zeiss must greatly improve their edges sharpness.

This is at least what Leica and Zeiss need to achieve the same level as Swarovski.

For Alberto it seems the improvements that Leica and Zeiss should make are to catch up with Swaro. I like good edge sharpness myself, not necessarily sharp to the edges where the image shrinks and appears to roll off edge of a sphere, but certainly sharp to 70% and gradual fall off after that so that the image is still clear enough to be useable.

There are two schools of thought about edge performance in birding binoculars. The first is "my dear, boy, you simply center the bird" (imagine that spoken in Lawrence Olivier accent).

This comes from a story circulated for a long time that Dustin Hoffman (being a "method actor") stayed up all night to play a character in "Marathon Man" who has stayed up all night. Arriving on the set, Laurence Olivier asked Hoffman why he looked the way he did. Hoffman told him, to which Olivier replied in jest, "Why not try acting? It's much easier."

The second school's mantra is "sharper is better". If your only intention is to ID a bird, edge sharpness may not be that important. But if you want to study the behavior of birds interacting, having an ample sweet spot and gradual fall off at the edges is very helpful. If you can only focus the edge or centerfield, but not both, you have to keep toggling back and forth to get the whole picture.

Good edges also provide an easier view. I find sharp fall off at the edges distracting while panning when my eyes automatically dart ahead into the fuzzy edges.

A wide sweet spot and gradual fall off also mimic eyesight. I can still see objects in my peripheral vision even though they are not perfectly sharp.

Whether or not Leica and Zeiss will sharpen the edges on their next gen. alphas remains to be seen.

The other feature that's been different about Swaro is that they offer two lines of alphas. As we've seen from some posts, not everybody likes the SV EL. Some prefer the SLC-HD. When you have only one product, either you like it or you don't. If you don't, you go elsewhere. If you have two products to chose from that look different and have different optical features, it doubles your chances of making a sale.

Leica could use this approach because it doesn't have a lower priced line of products like Zeiss or Swaro. Leica can either go two tier like Zeiss or offer a second line of bins on the top shelf.

I know they have the Silverline and the BL, but that's cosmetic. It gives some variety, but it's not a substantive difference like the SV EL and SLC-HD or the FL and Conquest.

After taking a major hit in 2009, I'm not sure if the company is ready to venture in new directions. But it's clear that there are those who prefer the old Trinnies to the Ubervids. Resurrecting the Trinny would be the least expensive way of offering an alternative product, but it could also be a line of binoculars with a "Trinny view" but with a more modern body style.

But would that be sending the wrong signal to buyers? We have nothing new to offer.

With Swaro making changes at the top and offering a new "lighter and more compact" line at the second tier, and Zeiss now either doing the same or upgrading its Conquest line, the pressure is going to be on Leica to come up with something significantly different too.

Perhaps that can be satisfied by making a new/old configuration such as 7x35. The great popularity of the ZR 7x36 ED2 shows the interest in this configuration.

Overall, buyers seem pretty happy with the Ultravids, in particular the Leica's color saturation, contrast, and good handling of back light, so perhaps "what's new" could be just improving the Ultravid.

Sharpening the edges, improving the CA, and perhaps finding a way to make the focuser smoother (already smoother on the HD, but not as smooth as Nikon's Premier or EDG or the FL).

Continuing to improve its customer and repair service are other areas they need to catch up with Swaro, and those don't require a lot of extra expense, just a change in priorities.

But the question remains, at what cost? How much are most buyers willing to pay for these improvements?

And what about those buyers who aren't willing to pay the premium for them? Are they lost forever or can they be recaptured with a different product line?

No doubt there's some head scratching going on at Leica about these issues.

Brock
 
My ideal binocular (is only my opinion):

Optical
-Contrast: Swarovision.
-CA: Swarovision.
-Edge (sharpness and astigmatism): Swarovision.
-Pincushion distortion and rolling ball effect: Leica Ultravid, Zeiss FL, Swarovski SLC HD.
-Light transmission: Zeiss FL, Leica Ultravid, Swarovski SV and SLC HD.

Body
-Size: Leica Ultravid.
-Ergonomy: Leica Ultravid with a shorter hinge(like Swarovision), Swarovision.
-Composite materials: Magnesium inside, titanium hinge, rubber armor.
-Focuser: Zeiss FL, Nikon EDG.
-Look: Leica Ultravid, closely followed by Swarovski SLC HD and Swarovision.

Other
-Models: 7x35, 8x40, 8x42 and 8.5x42.
-Customer and technician repair service: Swarovski.
 
........we don't even like HDTV too much because of its sheer exaggeration. At times it's painful to watch, not natural, not pleasing. That ain't what it's like "being there." Borderline psychedelic maybe.

..........
Mark

I doubt that these effects are due to HD as such. Rather, they are misused. HD certainly lends itself to more such misuse. And that's a basic problem these days. Being just plain natural does not seem to be fashionable. And all too many people's attention seems to be only guaranteed if a shrub is pink or purple, but certainly not a natural green.

I still do not own a TV, and I always said "not till we get HDTV". The reason being the flickering im my eyes before the 100HZ versions, plus the lack of resolution. But when I watch now at the stores, I'm often equally turned off for the exagerations you mention. And the present trend to larger and larger screens is probably not helpful for a relaxed view. But then, there are other HD programs that provide what might entice me to finally buy a TV. If only they'd provide for the additional time as well. ;) .
 
My ideal binocular (is only my opinion):

Optical
-Contrast: Swarovision.
-CA: Swarovision.
-Edge (sharpness and astigmatism): Swarovision.
-Pincushion distortion and rolling ball effect: Leica Ultravid, Zeiss FL, Swarovski SLC HD.
-Light transmission: Zeiss FL, Leica Ultravid, Swarovski SV and SLC HD.

Body
-Size: Leica Ultravid.
-Ergonomy: Leica Ultravid with a shorter hinge(like Swarovision), Swarovision.
-Composite materials: Magnesium inside, titanium hinge, rubber armor.
-Focuser: Zeiss FL, Nikon EDG.
-Look: Leica Ultravid, closely followed by Swarovski SLC HD and Swarovision.

Other
-Models: 7x35, 8x40, 8x42 and 8.5x42.
-Customer and technician repair service: Swarovski.


You are limiting your search by sticking to such a low number of brands. There are many others that have characteristics worthy of mention, maybe even better than those listed. For example, there are numerous inexpensive porro's that have higher transmission levels than the Swarovision, and to give the FL [my favourite bin] the nod for rolling-ball / pincushion is just wrong....
 
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You are limiting your search by sticking to such a low number of brands. There are many others that have characteristics worthy of mention, maybe even better than those listed. For example, there are numerous inexpensive porro's that have higher transmission levels than the Swarovision, and to give the FL [my favourite bin] the nod for rolling-ball / pincushion is just wrong....

James:

I am thinking Alberto gave the FL the nod for a "lack of" the rolling ball,
and that is a good thing I am told for some afflicted. ;)

Jerry
 
You are limiting your search by sticking to such a low number of brands. There are many others that have characteristics worthy of mention, maybe even better than those listed. For example, there are numerous inexpensive porro's that have higher transmission levels than the Swarovision, and to give the FL [my favourite bin] the nod for rolling-ball / pincushion is just wrong....

I´m limiting my search to a low numbers of brands because there are only 4 alpha binoculars brands: Leica Ultravid, Zeiss FL, Swarovski (SV, SLC HD) and Nikon EDG.
Betta binoculars brands are others like Kowa XD, Zeiss Conquest, Swarovski (CL, SLC), Nikon HG, Minox HG APO, Pentax ED, ...

There aren´t any inexpensive porro with a transmission even near to any alpha binoculars. Nikon Prostar, Fujinon, Minox BP or Nikon SE are excellent and expensive binoculars.
You couldn´t mix porros and roofs in the same binocular.
I haven´t any problem with porros, but it not seems any alpha brands are going to make a porro binocular, except Nikon SE and EII.

Today optics in about F/4 focal lenght/objetive diameter relation is limited to have rolling ball effect or pincushion distortion.
You must choose one of them: rolling ball effect like Swarovision or pincushion distortion like Leica Ultravid, Zeiss FL, Swarovski SLC HD.
My personal choice is the second one.
 
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I´m limiting my search to a low numbers of brands because there are only 4 alpha binoculars brands: Leica Ultravid, Zeiss FL, Swarovski (SV, SLC HD) and Nikon EDG.
Betta binoculars brands are others like Kowa XD, Zeiss Conquest, Swarovski (CL, SLC), Nikon HG, Minox HG APO, Pentax ED, ...

There aren´t any inexpensive porro with a transmission even near to any alpha binoculars. Nikon Prostar, Fujinon, Minox BP or Nikon SE are excellent and expensive binoculars.
You couldn´t mix porros and roofs in the same binocular.
I haven´t any problem with porros, but it not seems any alpha brands are going to make a porro binocular, except Nikon SE and EII.

Today optics in about F/4 focal lenght/objetive diameter relation is limited to have rolling ball effect or pincushion distortion.
You must choose one of them: rolling ball effect like Swarovision or pincushion distortion like Leica Ultravid, Zeiss FL, Swarovski SLC HD.
My personal choice is the second one.


Here is one for starters........Opticron Countryman 10x42 MC T, $250 -- trans [by Allbinos] of 90%, better than SV or EDG!!

There are many other examples out there.......

EDIT - a 30 + year old CZJ Jenoptem hits 90% as well. What's that, about a 100 dollar bin?
 
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I´m limiting my search to a low numbers of brands because there are only 4 alpha binoculars brands: Leica Ultravid, Zeiss FL, Swarovski (SV, SLC HD) and Nikon EDG.
Betta binoculars brands are others like Kowa XD, Zeiss Conquest, Swarovski (CL, SLC), Nikon HG, Minox HG APO, Pentax ED, ...

There aren´t any inexpensive porro with a transmission even near to any alpha binoculars. Nikon Prostar, Fujinon, Minox BP or Nikon SE are excellent and expensive binoculars.
You couldn´t mix porros and roofs in the same binocular.
I haven´t any problem with porros, but it not seems any alpha brands are going to make a porro binocular, except Nikon SE and EII.

Today optics in about F/4 focal lenght/objetive diameter relation is limited to have rolling ball effect or pincushion distortion.
You must choose one of them: rolling ball effect like Swarovision or pincushion distortion like Leica Ultravid, Zeiss FL, Swarovski SLC HD.
My personal choice is the second one.

You mentioned the Nikon SE and Nikon EDG. To me, these two models achieve the best balance btwn pincushion and "rolling ball". Panning is smooth with the SEs. The 10x42 EDG also pans smoothly. To Nikon's credit, it was able to achieve these results with both models while also giving them sharp edges, but not going to extreme like the HG or SV EL.

According to Allbinos, the Swift 820 Audubon has 90% light transmission, nearly on par with the 8x32 Leica Ultravid @ 91.7%. At $329, it's relatively inexpensive compared to a Leica.

They also rate the Leupold Mesa 10x50 @ 90%, and it costs $200. So it's not hard to make even cheap porros with high light transmission, but with roofs, you need dielectric coatings and 64 layers of AR coatings to achieve the same or better results.

Decades earlier, porros achieved some of the same benchmarks that roofs have finally accomplished today at much greater expense. Porros also had ED glass before ED glass was cool.

The saving grace is that roof technology eventually filters down to second tier and mid-priced roofs, so others who can't afford the top tier can also benefit from the innovations.

The greatest opportunity for buyers seeking quality optics will be at the second tier, which I think will grow substantially over the next 5 years.

As alpha prices break through the thermosphere into exosphere, the space program dropouts and wannabes will gravitate to the second tier where they can get 90%+ the performance for half the price.

Brock
 
Decades earlier, porros achieved some of the same benchmarks that roofs have finally accomplished today at much greater expense. Porros also had ED glass before ED glass was cool. ....

Brock

Yes. That is true. A Porrro prism uses total internal reflection to flip the image and its almost abberation free. Roof prisms need very high tolerances in the angle of their roof part and also very complicated coatings to achieve the same thing. Imagine an alternative history where roof prism binoculars were popular first. Then imagine that a company, say Swarovski, has made a Porro prism binocular and is bringing them to the market. I challenge the forum members to write a two-paragraph advertisment piece for this "new" product and describe its merit over the old "roof" design! Please be honest and realistic in your writings. ;)
 
Imagine an alternative history where roof prism binoculars were popular first. Then imagine that a company, say Swarovski, has made a Porro prism binocular and is bringing them to the market. I challenge the forum members to write a two-paragraph advertisment piece for this "new" product and describe its merit over the old "roof" design! Please be honest and realistic in your writings.

OK, I'll bite...

The new Swarovski PV 7x42, 8.5x42, and 10x42 Porro Prism Binoculars.

New for 2013, Swarovski is now offering a new PORRO PRISM design that's sure to please. Imagine a view that's as sharp and bright and free of stray color as our SV series roof binoculars, in a package that's half the price! Although the new PV series are a little heavier and larger than our SVs, the user is rewarded with a wonderful 3D view that's very easy to hold in the hands and still has Swarovski's legendary waterproofness and durabilty.

Available in both armored and pebble grain versions, the PVs offer the same brilliant coatings you've come to expect in our SV line. Twist up eyecups? Of course! Smooth, internal focus? You bet! Ideal for that second great pair of bins to use at your kid's game, the 7x42s have a field of view of 475' at 1000 yards making it easy to follow the action. The 8.5 and 10x versions are great for most of the rest of us where ultimate ruggedness and compactness aren't required.

So check out the new PV series at your local shop and see if they're the Swarovskis for you
 
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