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Willow or Marsh Tit? (1 Viewer)

V

VoluntaryRanger

Well-known member
Saw this bird at Pennington Flash near Wigan back in August. It has a pale wing panel and bullnecked appearance but I understand this is no longer a good diagnostic for Willow Tit.Can anyone throw any light on it. Pennington is a good spot for Willows but I understand they get occasional Marsh Tits.
 

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despite the apparent wing panel and buffish underparts this should be a marsh tit, putting weight on the pale spot on upper mandible base.
 
Putting too much weight on that pale spot on the bill, might break it . . . :king:

I'm far from convinced, particularly given the ease of reflected light making an apparent spot.


Did the bird call at all?
 
chris butterworth said:
Bi-coloured cheek and pale bill spot ( in the right place ) rule out Willow, IMO.
Click to expand...

Herewith a Willow Tit with Bi-coloured cheek...regarding the ''proximal spot'' it's concolourous with most of the upper-mandible...perhaps strongly suggesting a highlight, as any PS would surely appear more opaque and better defined ?

Cheers
 

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Agree with Ken. Any bill spot would be more clearly defined, zoom in on the bill and the paleness is more to do with light or photo artefact. Notice as well how the paleness flows over the top of the bill. Again, Marsh Tit would be much more well defined.
Also I follow the Manchester Birding Site daily and Marsh Tit is a mega rarity in the area. There is one currently at Watergrove Reservoir near Rochdale and it caused a major county twitch. If there had been one at Pennington Flash recently it would have been seen/heard/twitched due to the high volume of very competent and well respected birders who pass through there. The Marsh Tit also caused a lot of discussion/comparisons with the Pennington Willow Tits.
Ian
 
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I don't see enough white in the wings for a willow, and I'm inclined to believe the "spot" is a marking not highlight. More pics at different angles would solve this debate more easily.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the "spot" is not only in the perfect spot but also the right size (~1/3 of total bill length).
 
I don't think Marsh has so clearcut pale edges to tailfeathers, and as other characters point towards Willow I'll go for that too.
 
lewis20126 said:
Willow Tit.

The buff upsweep across the rear cheek is frequent here in the Hampshire population.
Click to expand...
Perhaps not quite so pronounced, but shows up in Northumbrian birds too. Oh, and spot the pale spot at the base of the upper mandible :king:

Just for clarification, this bird was at a well-known Willow Tit site, well away from the nearest Marsh Tits, and was calling classic Willow Tit calls :t:
 

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Nice to see a very obvious Willow Tit :)

Bi-coloured cheeks not a problem, particularly if the rear of the cheek has a golden-buff wash to it - the darker rear cheek of Marsh Tit is 'blended' from the mantle colour, whereas this bird has a very distinct boundary between mantle and rear cheek. The pale spot of Marsh Tit should be just that - a pale spot. An indistinct rectangle covering more than a third of the cutting edge is much more likely to be a reflection.

It's interesting that newer ID criteria are being applied with little consideration of what those criteria actually mean in reality...

cheers
martin
 
martin kitching said:
Nice to see a very obvious Willow Tit :)

Bi-coloured cheeks not a problem, particularly if the rear of the cheek has a golden-buff wash to it - the darker rear cheek of Marsh Tit is 'blended' from the mantle colour, whereas this bird has a very distinct boundary between mantle and rear cheek. The pale spot of Marsh Tit should be just that - a pale spot. An indistinct rectangle covering more than a third of the cutting edge is much more likely to be a reflection.

It's interesting that newer ID criteria are being applied with little consideration of what those criteria actually mean in reality...

cheers
martin
Click to expand...

Thanks Martin, and everyone else.I had trouble seeing the spot folks keep talking about and am inclined to think it's a reflection, although I note recent research states that 3% of Willow Tits show the spot and 4% of Marsh Tits don't. I think folks put too much emphasis on it as being the only reliable factor.The same research states that no Marsh Tits showed that buff wash that blended in, which would indicate even if it had a white spot that it is a Willow Tit. @Nutcracker, sadly it didn't call.
 
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Cosmetics apart, extremely dusky....I've always found Marsh Tit to be positively ''well scrubbed'' by comparison, and just look at the body, excluding the tail, the head represents c48% of the total...with or without the proximal spot.
 
halftwo said:
Clearly a Willow - the shagginess of the feathers apart from other features.
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Thanks halftwo, your comment on the 'shagginess' of the feathers has helped crystallise my experience. I am fortunate to have both Marsh and Willow tits visit my garden. Interestingly the Marsh tits arrive in the autumn and winter and compete on the bird feeders, whereas (up to now) I have only seen/heard the Willow tits in spring and summer. I have tried all sorts of 'tips' to separate them visually before (if) they open their mouths. Up to now they are all fallible, although I have found that as Ken says above Marsh tits tend to look 'well-scrubbed' to use his words. I have never established 'why' though - and I think your comment might have clinched it. I only have good quality photos of the Marsh tits and they certainly look much neater and their feathers seemingly shorter and much 'tighter' than this image.

Might it be a function of their moult timing though?..... and therefore equally fallible!

I am going to try to photograph known individuals (by call) of both species through the coming year to see if I can show it is (or isn't) a good distinguishing feature if you get good enough views. Ho hum.
 
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