Help with 'Scottish' Crossbill ID (1 Viewer)

Hi,

I was in Scotland earlier this month, and managed to track down some crossbills, which I pleased about as they have eluded me in the past. The attached pics (apologies for quality, bad light, long distance etc) were taken in the Loch Garten/Abernethy Forest area, showing a heavy-billed male with bull-neck etc, one of a flock of about 8 birds, including females and juvs. Help is required to determine whether they are Scottish Crossbills (if such a thing actually exists) or Parrot Crossbills. I realise that ID of these two is very difficult (not least because they are one and the same?), and possibly quite subjective, and that things like sonograms often have to be used. However, I thought I'd see what people thought. My reaction at the time (having only ever seen Common Crossbills) was that the bill didn't seem quite as heavy as I'd expected Parrot to look. What do others think?

Thanks!

I'll be very impressed if anyone can help you with a firm ID, but the bill looks to me to be larger than a typical Common Crossbill and smaller than the Parrot Crossbills I have seen in UK – but maybe just the largest-billed ones are IDed over here. I'm yet to hear of a positive way to ID Scottish Crossbill.

Perhaps a helpful Swede or Finn will be along shortly to give us all a lesson...

Easy-peasy - Highlands of Scotland - Scottish Crossbill

I guess I'm not a purest on such things, but it's probably about as good a way to tell them apart as anything else. The more Crossbills you look at the more variation in bill size/shape you see - in additon this looks like an immature bird which may have more to grow yet!

IanF said:

Easy-peasy - Highlands of Scotland - Scottish Crossbill

I guess I'm not a purest on such things, but it's probably about as good a way to tell them apart as anything else. The more Crossbills you look at the more variation in bill size/shape you see - in additon this looks like an immature bird which may have more to grow yet!

Click to expand...

The Commonest breeding Crossbill in Abernethy Forest IS the Parrot Crossbill (shown in your photos),* next is Common Crossbill. The remainder are up to your own imagination as Scottish type birds could not be identified 100% in the field anyway.

JP

*2003 Highland Bird Report.

John Jackson said:

Perhaps a helpful Swede or Finn will be along shortly to give us all a lesson...

Click to expand...

Or a Scot...

I presume all three photos are of the same bird, in which case my feeling is that it's a Parrot Crossbill.

Stuart (former Scot)

Hi Lindsay,

Thanks for your v constructive comments. I had actually looked at some of your photos on Birdguides (Scottish and Parrot), and as you say, analysing photos is difficult! When doing this, however, I came across a Parrot crossbill photo (taken by Andrew Easton I think), showing a bird with a massive bill - what I expected a Parrot to look like! However, I fully appreciate that you have to account for individual variation, as with a population of any species, and that there is no easy answer...

With regards to the structure of the bill, as you say, the culmen is not as sharply curved as I'd expected Parrot to be, nor was the 's' shaped bulge along the lower mandible especially prominent (although it was there - it doesn't really show up in the pics).

As for calls, all I can say is that I recognised them as being disticnt form Common crossbill, but as I have no prior experience of either of the two spp, they weren't of any more use to me.

Pine cones: do crossbills have different feeding methodologies? These birds seemed to be prefering scattered semi-mature (but not old) scots pines, rather than trees at higher densities. They deftly snaped the cones off at the base, and then somehow held them below their bodies (presumably held under their feet, wedged against the branch, but this was difficult to see).

As for birds on Deeside, I visited a site and had several (small) groups of crossbills fly overhead, but none landed anywhere visible, unfortunately!

It sounds like you're leaning towards Parrot crossbill (as are others), so thanks for your help!

The very stout bill, in combination with the bull-necked look, must surely rule out Common Crossbill. A bird like this here in Sweden would go as a Parrot but I agree that the lower mandible is perhaps not quite as 'buckled' as many Parrots show. So the choice is between a smallish Parrot Crossbill or a Scottish Crossbill (or, of course, a hybrid). I can well imagine that Scottish Crossbill might look like this but it's all conjecture given that they're apparently not even separable from Parrot - or Common - in the hand.

Rgds

Greg

I would quite happily tick that as a Parrot Crossbill with a relatively clear conscience but the whole subject is a minefield.

I know this topic really is a minefield and Lindsay's comments are probably far more educated than mine. I still think however that the bird in the photos is pretty clearly Parrot based on my experience of local birds in Abernethy.
Most of the families I have come across this year in Abernethy were certainly Parrots. There was certainly a group of about eight Parrots hanging around one the more popular spots of the forest which I guess is where the photo might have been taken.

JP

Lindsay Cargill said:

The Parrots in Scotland, that is xbills giving EcDi and for the moment EcDii

Click to expand...

Erm, could you explain what you are talking about, please.

John

Thank you Lindsay

I assume you know this website, but others reading the thread may not

http://research.amnh.org/ornithology/crossbills/contents.html

It would be nice to see a comparable study of European birds, but I do not know of one.

Do I understand correctly that there are three distinct groups of Common Crossbills in Scotland, each with distinctive call and bill length? Would these occur in the same area and do they not interbreed?
If this is so, it would be the case that (with Parrot and Scottish) there are as many as five crossbill types in the single area?

Interesting stuff, but as I understand individual birds are 'faithful' to a single call type, yes? (hence a relationship between bill size and call type). In your experience, do you often get 'mixed' flocks of Common Crossbills, i.e. do the call types tend to associate with their own type?