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Humans causing mass extinction is good news! (1 Viewer)

david2004

Well-known member
Yes, that's an unbelievable title isn't it. But that is what one of the teachers at my school said in a speech addressed to 16-18 year olds. What kind of example is that to young people when important issues like these will be in our hands?

This teacher has said some rather unorthodox things before, but this really annoyed me. He started by mentioning the fish stock depletion that was in the news on Friday, and then went on to say it doesn't matter. He explained that "the Earth didn't care" that we were encroaching on habitat and slaughtering species etc, so why should we?

He also backed up his arguments by mentioning previous mass extinctions (NATURAL ones) such as the dinosaurs. Surely this is completely unrelated to what he described as the next mass extinction, which in my opinion has been brought on by man.

The teacher said that it is a good thing that we are destroying the planet, as it is allowing ecological niches for new species in the future. That may be so, but what he said has completely undermined conservation, which I care about, and gives a completely selfish, unbelievable point of view.

What does everyone else think about this?
 
Your teacher sounds like someone in my family, who thinks that as long as humans are part of the ecosystem, regardless of what we do to the environment, the earth will eventually recover. Good thing my vote cancels out his at the polls. ;)

I think you're right to be concerned, David. Apparently your teacher has never heard of the concept of good stewardship of the planet.
 
I think it's excellent that (young) people are challenged with what might at first appear to be outrageous statements that are then backed up with scientific 'proof' or reasoned opinion. It forces (the brighter amongst) them to search their consciousness for counter-arguments. I hope you get a chance to reply. I'm also glad that teachers (in UK) can still (just about) propound nuttiness in the name of academic freedom provided they (also) cover the syllabus satisfactorily.

I can't see why creating new niches is inherently 'good' or inherently 'bad'. If he really has annoyed you don't forget he may have been playing the Devil's Advocate. You might like to take the time to read up on the writings of Arne Naess (the founder of Deep Ecology):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arne_Næss

and the corresponding Wiki entry on Deep Ecology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_ecology

where you'll find plenty of philosophically-based positions that counter your teacher's words and some that actually back it up.

In the end I have to say that the reductionist "Spock" side of my brain does find some sympathy for his position although I would be very careful never to use the words 'good' or 'bad' in the context of extinction / exploitation.... exploitation of other species is just what humans 'do' when following genetically pre-programmed behaviour such as hunting and gathering - only its effect are increased by our numbers and technological capacity. Then (obviously) the more human and humane side of me cuts in and says 'don't be stupid - here is a list of purely selfish reasons why you should be sad if cod become extinct... not least the 'utilitarian' view that hake is nowhere near as good with chips.

david2004 said:
Yes, that's an unbelievable title isn't it. But that is what one of the teachers at my school said in a speech addressed to 16-18 year olds. What kind of example is that to young people when important issues like these will be in our hands?

This teacher has said some rather unorthodox things before, but this really annoyed me. He started by mentioning the fish stock depletion that was in the news on Friday, and then went on to say it doesn't matter. He explained that "the Earth didn't care" that we were encroaching on habitat and slaughtering species etc, so why should we?

He also backed up his arguments by mentioning previous mass extinctions (NATURAL ones) such as the dinosaurs. Surely this is completely unrelated to what he described as the next mass extinction, which in my opinion has been brought on by man.

The teacher said that it is a good thing that we are destroying the planet, as it is allowing ecological niches for new species in the future. That may be so, but what he said has completely undermined conservation, which I care about, and gives a completely selfish, unbelievable point of view.

What does everyone else think about this?
 
Agree this seems like a completely irresponsible message to put out David. Hopefully others in your class will also be sensible enough not to just accept what he says, and actually think about it...

You should speak to him and tell him exactly what you think (politely of course), if you haven't already - he has an influence on a very important generation, so don't let it lie. Go to another member of staff (or write a letter) if you're not comfortable with talking to him. And make sure your friends know he's talking rubbish!

Good luck... :)

PS. You might want to point him towards some references, perhaps some easy ones to break him in. For example The Revenge of Gaia by James Lovelock (I just got it today, haven't read it but will give you a review when I have!) to counter his comment that 'the earth doesn't care'.
 
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Just out of interest Paul, why are hunting and gathering genetically pre-programmed? If you're interested in a counter argument, I'm happy to point you in the direction of some!

Interesting and slightly strange thing for your teacher to say, but as Touty says, he's a teacher and his job is to make you think. In one way, this has obviously worked. You could always bunk off school a bit in answer to his question - go and see a few birds maybe. After all, it doesn't matter what you do in the end;).
 
Andrew Whitehouse said:
Interesting and slightly strange thing for your teacher to say, but as Touty says, he's a teacher and his job is to make you think. In one way, this has obviously worked. You could always bunk off school a bit in answer to his question - go and see a few birds maybe. After all, it doesn't matter what you do in the end;).

Andrew, is this some natural instinct to stick up for your kind or something? Come on...

Good advice though ;)
 
Andrew Whitehouse said:
Just out of interest Paul, why are hunting and gathering genetically pre-programmed? If you're interested in a counter argument, I'm happy to point you in the direction of some!

Behavioural traits of animals have innate (genetic) and learned (cultural) components... including those of humans. The extent to which one, other or both contribute to the mix is difficult to demonstrate. I certainly know (from personal experience) that galliforms such as partridges, when young anyway, rapidly show appropriate gathering (foraging) behaviour when exposed to 'wild' conditions after being moved from game farms with no parents to show them what to do. Funnily enough (again personal observation) this plastic / elastic window seems to close quite quickly... you can't teach an old partridge new tricks.

Animals with more complex behavioural patterns might need to 'learn' the tricks of the trade, either by copying their parents or by being given time to learn by trial-and-error through the support of parents or relatives (being fed after fledging for up to a year in the case of some bird species).

That hunting and gathering in humans have some genetic component in humans (rather than being 100% cultural) I think has to be taken as a given (i.e can't be proved or disproved because only the combination of genetics and culture will produce a coherent hunting and / or gathering behaviour). Maybe you could discover the relative importance of innate vs. learned in the 'lower' primates. I happen to think that birding is a hunter-gatherer substitute and that genetic drives in that direction produce a lot of human behavioural traits even when Tescos is open 24 hours a day.

I suppose I should make clear that I think genetic predetermination of human psychological traits is a fact.... Not a popular position with many people I know, but....

Clear? Thought not.
 
david2004 said:
What does everyone else think about this?

I don't think the quote is outrageous! I agree that this teacher almost certainly said what he said in a provocative manner, to get you thinking. To answer the question 'does it matter ?' I think you can look at it from two positions:

(i) to us humans, of course it matters. We care about our environment, both from a selfish perspective (it is not in our self interest to let global warming, for example, run unchecked) and from a moral / human perspective (i.e. we care about life on Earth for its own sake).
(ii) in the bigger picture (in which we are unimportant) it doesn't really matter. The planet has had many catastrophes to contend with, and life always finds a way. Life has a tendency to evolve to fill niches and new habitats, and humankind's destruction of the current environment will simply dictate that life evolves in a particular direction, long after we are gone.

Neil
 
I am with Touty on this one. It is more important that people (teachers or not) have the freedom to say what they want - however much you might disagree with it - than that they are forced into spouting official orthodoxy.

Assuming your teacher actually believes what he is saying; so what?

Rather damagingly to the egos of some members of the teaching profession, they are pretty small beer in the great scheme of things.
 
Probably not a good idea to hijack this thread but just a few points.

1. What you describe are animals (both human and nonhuman) learning through their interactions with their environment. Why do you need to explain how animals learn as being caused either by nature (I suppose genes) or culture?
2. In other words, what would your descriptions and explanations of learned behaviour look like if you didn't decide to tie your explanations to either the concept of nature or culture, which after all, are just abstract categories?
3. Is life simply the acting out of pre-existing genetic or cultural designs? If so, how are these designs arrived at (and you're not allowed to say God!)?
4. Why do life sciences shun using living as an explanation, instead prefering to look to natural or cultural designs? Don't humans and other animals learn through living?
5. Is it only parents that 'show us what to do'?
6. How do my genes make me go birdwatching? I go birdwatching because it was suggested to me as being something I'd enjoy and I found that I do - so isn't it because of that suggestion?

Might be a good idea to start another thread on this!
 
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Actually, just to get this back on topic and perhaps to tie my rather strange set of questions back to David's original point, I'll try and offer this as a possible answer to David's teacher.

The idea that humans causing mass extinctions is 'good news' is flawed because, like most current thinking, it is based on the problematic concept of nature. These are certain assumptions that develop from the concept of nature that tend to distract us from the significance of our own lives and the lives of all other organisms:

1. In nature, there are no values. Values are only found in culture, and this tends to subordinate them to the higher 'reality' of nature. Therefore, any values we have e.g. how we can best live our lives, tend to be rendered as insignificant when confronted with nature. What we do in our lives 'doesn't matter in the long run' because life will go on and nature doesn't care which organisms are doing the living.
2. The idea of nature, as it tends to operate in biological sciences, emphasises long term processes of evolution but only in terms of genetic material that is passed on from one generation to another. This assumption again subordinates the lives that go on in between this passing on of genetic material. However, this forgets the very real effects that living organisms have on their environments and on other lives. This emphasis on life being about the passing on of 'pre-existing' designs is also replicated in the idea of culture in the social sciences. Learning is thus rendered as being about acquiring a 'cultural model' that is, over time, implanted in our heads, rathe than involving a process of acquiring skills through our ongoing engagement in the world.
3. Nature therefore tends to distract us from using living, that is the interactions of organism and environment, as the basis for our explanations of living: of why life develops as it does and the important effects this process has. If we were to foresake the rather outdated conceptual division of the world into nature and culture and consider instead living as a process that unites organism and environment rather than separating them, then this will place our attention firmly back on living rather than on some unyielding and timeless 'nature'. This nature in the end is only an idea, and not something that we can actually observe. What we can observe are our own lives and the lives of all other organisms. This is what we should value and this is what matters.

You could give it a go anyway.
 
Rambling a bit here but...

Much environmentalist thinking is premised on the idea that humans have become ever more powerful over nature, to the point where they are able to completely trascend it and 'the end of nature' is nigh. In this scenario, if nature is what we value then pretty much everything humans do is wrong because it will inherently tend to destroy nature.

The approach that David's teacher proposed turns this around by arguing that in the long run, nature transcends humans. Nature is all that remains after we are all dead and gone. In this scenario, nothing we do matters.

Blimey! Not much of a choice is it? But it's the choice we are faced with if we think of the world, as we tend to, as being divided into the natural and the human (or culture or society, if you prefer) and if we set these two 'worlds' against each other. Perhaps we need some new ways of thinking - anyone any suggestions?
 
It sounds like an over simplification of a possible truth MEANT to get young minds thinking. Honestly..... it IS true that mass swift changes to ANY enviornment serve to bennefit new species and in some cases speed evolution, but stating it is a good thing for MAN to do IS stretching it. It is a matter of balance, cause and effect, and natural selection.

I wouldn't hate the guy if i were you. It sounds to me as if he is playing Devil's advocate in order to inspire young minds not only to think but to act.
 
Morality of allowing extinctions

Interesting debate. My personal hope is that the human race wipes itself out pretty soon before doing too much more damage!
Below is a University essay I wrote on the motivations for conservation (ie why we shouldn't cause extinctions of other species). Its pretty long so by all means ignore this post keep to the main debate.....
What should conservation efforts be directed at and why?

Due to the rate of man’s consumption of resources, how rapidly we destroy and alter habitats, and the externalities of growth in the world economies there are almost infinite possible causes and aims for conservation bodies to try and tackle. With so many possible conservation causes and comparably so little funding, so few conservationist and such rapid rates of habitat destruction should we prioritise some conservation efforts over others, and if so, what criteria do we use to determine which issues and causes take priority? To answer this question it is perhaps better to first consider why we conserve the environment at all?
In seeking to protect species, ecosystem and habitats we are may be doing because it is ethical for humans as the most successful species on earth to try and avoid destroying or reducing the numbers of other species, i.e we altruistically deem that all other organisms should be allowed to exist. The other potential reason we should try to protect the environment would be purely of the benefit of humans, both present and future. This potentially becomes a philosophical question of whether the universe would really exist without the self-aware beings to analyse it. If there was a hypothetical species, of which humans could and would never find any trace, would it matter if it became extinct? Do we conserve for the sake of conserving environment, or is it an ultimately selfish action by man that the destruction of other species, and of the environment generally is to our own detriment.

Man as a species seems to have to intrinsic and overriding drives. We are driven to explore and to learn about things and when we know we can, we are compelled to exploit and gain advantage from what is around us. Though idealistically the most ethical thing for humans to do is to avoid impacting on any species in the long-term and to live in harmony with the environment, the can only way this can be achieved would be through a subsistence lifestyle similar to that from 10,000 years ago, and in the modern world this is not tenable. Large increases in human population alone mean that basic needs have overtaken any possibility of living in balance with all other species on the planet. The urge to meet not just our basic needs but also our infinite wants as humans has led to the creation of the capitalist system, which is geared so that people improve their standard of living through exploiting the earth’s resources. In a modern setting we only consider it necessary to conserve the environment for the sake of allowing humans to study, observe, learn from and enjoy it and the creatures within it, then perhaps all conservation causes are chosen on the basis of what benefits people and society the most. Protecting species, eco-systems and habitats benefits society in a large number of different ways over, most generally over the long term.
To allow the destruction of the environment and extinction of species removes the diversity of aesthetics of the world, and just as society would consider the destruction of a famous piece of artwork a tragedy, so we also want to preserve species (and individual animals) just to be able to enjoy them on a personal and societal level. Ethically most faiths hold that to destroy something of beauty is a sin, because we automatically feel that others deserve the chance to experience what we find pleasant. The same is true of landscapes, habitats and species; it is often argued that they should be protected for the benefit of future generations.
It is estimated that since man became more advanced in the last 10,000 years the rate of species extinction has increased 1000-fold (Global Biodiversity Assessment). This massive and rapid reduction in genetic diversity means we put ourselves at risk. By 2020 it is thought that as many as a quarter of the world’s plant species may have gone extinct. This could affect crops that we are dependant on for survival; homogenous crops, even those of exceptional, engineered, strains which can out-compete all native varieties, will all be susceptible to the same blights, and therefore mass crop failure could occur due to the limited gene-pool of such varieties. If native crop plants have been forced out and become extinct by these super-strains then no new genes are available, and crop blights could become frequent.
The rapid extinctions of plant and animal species means that the number of species from which we can derive new drugs and medicines is diminished. Only a very small proportion of manufactured drugs are made synthetically, so destroying rainforests and reducing global biodiversity means we are less likely to ever find cures for the likes of AIDS and various cancers. Examples already exist recently where it has been realised that certain little known species can be used against these diseases. For instance the Rosy Periwinkle flower, found in Madagascar, has been successfully used to combat several forms of cancer, including Hodgkin's disease (Dirk et al 97). The moral argument to this is that surely if we hold the protection of human life in the highest importance, then surely to destroy even possible cures for disease is totally unethical?
The final reason to conserve would seem to be to allow future generations exactly the same rights and resources as we have had at our disposal. For one generation to cause massive species extinction, reducing the quality of life possible for every subsequent generation can be argued to be morally wrong. One of the flaws in all intrinsic flaws in democratic political systems is that governments need only plan for the relatively short term, as they are only voted into or out of power by the voting population at the time, they are not made responsible in any way to generations of the future.

Having explored exactly why we should make conservation efforts the question comes as to exactly what we should conserve? Of known species, we can ask why one is worth protecting more so than the other, but when we talk about entire eco-systems, the potential societal benefits of which may be unclear, it becomes even more difficult. Not only do the potential benefits of any given conservation efforts need to be weighed-up, but also whether the protection can be done cost-effectively. For instance it would be unethical to spend millions on a project for the protection of a single species if the project was very unlikely to succeed. In theory to make anything but the best decision about where to target conservation efforts is unethical, as all but the best options will, to a certain extent, waste the limited amounts of money, time and personnel available to conservation.
Obviously it will never be possible to make the absolute best conservation efforts, as there are so many unknown factors. We don’t jet know which species will provide cures for disease, or even exactly which species or ecosystems society values the most for it’s aesthetics. It is perhaps likely that many of the best conservation efforts could be made in researching and protecting areas of tropical rainforest, as it here that levels of biodiversity tend to be highest.
It is often easiest, and perhaps most cost effective to target conservation efforts towards a particular species. If this species is relatively high in the food chain, then making sure the habitat is managed and protected so that this species can survive will often mean that most species within the ecosystem are protected. Conservation could be argued to be not just about avoiding extinctions but about restoring or recovering species populations to secure levels, and preventing other species from reaching such a perilous situation in the first place (RSPB ’05). However it is difficult to argue whether it is better to focus the little money available on restoring population levels, or attempting to save the species which have become critically endangered.
There are example where money is spent on potentially poor causes which both in terms of benefit to society and cost-effectiveness, and this sometimes seems to occur when conservation bodies follow fashions created by the media to protect the big, brash and appealing species. Example of this might include the introduction of Ospreys to Rutland Water in England, where a species with relatively healthy global population levels has been introduced back into a small region where it has become extinct. Some might argue that this is actually unethical, as the species is being introduced at large cost, with little actually added protection of it future globally. The situation could be argued to become almost that of a glorified zoo, where bird are released at one location, in order for people to come and view them there. However, charismatic species like the Osprey can change the view of public towards the issue surrounding species protect, and this surely, in tern benefits other conservation efforts.
There is a danger that media fashions and general public relations exercises overtake the actual need to protect species. A recent example of this occurred in Britain when the cost of transporting a Magnificent Frigatebird found on the Isle of Man in 2000 back to it’s normal range in the tropical West Atlantic was incurred. Ethically this could have been seen as flawed for various reasons. First of all it isn’t an particularly efficient use of money to fly an individual bird half way around the world. Also it has been suggested that vagrancy is a necessary mechanism in some species to expand / alter their range in changing climatic conditions, and though unlikely in this particular case the principle of interference does not seem like sound science. Perhaps this is an example of where the desire on the part of a conservation body (Cheshire Zoo), took precedent over what the most ethical option in the situation was. Conservation bodies need to be careful not to take action which the world press will deem most ‘fashionable’ – it is all very well to protect flagship species such as Tigers and Giant Pandas, but there is a danger of loosing sight of the conservation of other species which aren’t so ‘glamorous’.
Another example which could be viewed as unethical allocation of conservation efforts may be very rare situation where some species are over-protected. In Britain Great Crested Newts are afforded massive protection, and any development which take place within the vicinity of any records of the species (even historical ones) has first sweep the area for news, and then set up a perimeter to prevent them entering the development. This means a very large cost to developers, and considering the scarcity of the species the laws in place would seem disproportional, even to the extent that it isn’t common sense.

There are obviously many issue surrounding what to protect, and why and in this essay I feel I have only begun to address the subject. The most ethical behaviour in any situation would seem to be to weigh up how much a species, habitat or ecosystem benefits society, whether through enjoyment, what we learn, or how we can potentially exploit it in future. How cost efficiently and effectively protection can take place also needs to be taken into account, and a balance struck between the two. With so many unknown factors we are unlikely to be able to prioritise conservation efforts in the best way. However, conservation is urgently need now in a huge number of situations, and it is important that we try to act as quickly as possible on as larger scale as we can.
 
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Considering the history of the planet and life forms ON it... i think it is safe to say that conservation, alternative rescources, and natural balance are really for the bennefit of us as humans. I seriously don't think we can DESTROY the earth as it is designed to change and grow as it needs to, it is in itself a living organism, and at best we are a virus that might make it sick, but it's natural antibodies will make sure it outlives us.

Honestly I have always found it a tad egocentric to think we humans could destroy the earth.
 
Andrew Whitehouse said:
Probably not a good idea to hijack this thread but just a few points.

I'm happy to move it elsewhere too but maybe the two can coexist.

1. What you describe are animals (both human and nonhuman) learning through their interactions with their environment. Why do you need to explain how animals learn as being caused either by nature (I suppose genes) or culture?

I didn't... I said that all organisms start with innate behaviours (genetic) on which the environment and experience leave their mark to produce the "finished" behavioural traits.

2. In other words, what would your descriptions and explanations of learned behaviour look like if you didn't decide to tie your explanations to either the concept of nature or culture, which after all, are just abstract categories?

I use "culture" in the broadest sense popssible as being ANY information that passes between the generations that contributes to a species' survival... the migration of all the eastern Bald Ibises to a single lake in Ethiopia is a cultural artefact because we know that hand-reared birds just wander around. The Austrian Bald Ibis project is attempting to recreate a culture by teaching the birds to migrate to Tuscany for the winter (like Tony Blair does in the summer).

3.
Is life simply the acting out of pre-existing genetic or cultural designs? If so, how are these designs arrived at (and you're not allowed to say God!)?

What's God? I'm Dawkins's biggest fan. The genetic and cultural designs develop as one during evolution. Stable cultural artefacts (such as Cranes migrating to Lago di Gallocanto in Spain) evolve because given a set of environmental circumstances that artefact is more successful than the others (in survival to reproduce terms). When environmental conditions change (warmer winters, maize cultivation, direct feeding) then innovators (who don't follow the flock and do something different) instead of being punished with death are rewarded with shorter migrations, lower mortality rates and greater reproductive success if they stop off at Lac du Chantecoq near Paris.

4. Why do life sciences shun using living as an explanation, instead prefering to look to natural or cultural designs? Don't humans and other animals learn through living?

Learning through living must also occur - I'm thinking for example of young grey herons - we get birds round here, alone, with down still on their heads that must be at least 50km from the colonies and no mum or dad in sight... but it can be expensive (i.e you screw-up, you die). K-selected species (few offspring and long-lived) avoid this as they have the opportunity to take advantage of cultural evolution and memes (see Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene". Small birds or short-lived birds don't have that luxury and are genetically pre-programmed with behavour patterns that interact with learning opportunities to produce the finished animal.

5. Is it only parents that 'show us what to do'?

Of course not? (Un)fortunately!

6. How do my genes make me go birdwatching? I go birdwatching because it was suggested to me as being something I'd enjoy and I found that I do - so isn't it because of that suggestion?

Animal brains have "reward centres" that respond to evolutionarily appropriate behaviour with a reward of feel-good chemicals, notably serotonin and endorphins. The release of these chemicals after sex, food, finding warmth, caring for offspring is partly genetic and partly learned. These rewards can be triggered by any number of learned behaviours and or chemicals... whatever floats your boat essentially. (Some chemicals such as recreational drugs short-cut this behaviour-reward link, and new treatments such as Zyban for nicotine aim to cut this link).

I think birding is a hunting substitute and hunting is one of the activities, with physical activity and measureable "success" that the body can encourage with neurotransmitter rewards and therefore reinforce the behaviour pattern.

Perhaps it isn't so much your genes starting you birdwatching as much as preventing you from stopping once you've started (and discovered an appropriate behaviour-reward link!). Come on... it's better than adrenaline addiction.
 
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Returning to the original question, even if the teacher in question is playing devil's advocate (which is unproven), they may not be doing so to an audience of appropriate age/intellectual development. Early teaching has to be just that - teaching with facts and concepts that the young can rely on.

The fact that at least one child didn't view the teaching as thought-provocation shows it was inappropriate.

John
 
Farnboro John said:
Returning to the original question, even if the teacher in question is playing devil's advocate (which is unproven), they may not be doing so to an audience of appropriate age/intellectual development.

"speech addressed to 16-18 year olds"

.... I certainly wouldn't have taken the same view had it been addressed to a pre-GCSE class.
 
Your teacher may have a point about opening up future niches for new species. If humans continue they way we are I forsee a niche opening up for a medium-sized bipedal ape. Just hope it does a better job than the current incumbent.
 
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