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Scottish Crossbill (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Peter 255
- Start date
Capercaillie71
Well-known member
I think you'll find very few people can reliably say they've seen a Scottish crossbill, due to the difficulty of identifying them and the fact that two other crossbill species (common and parrot) also occur in the same areas.
Scottish crossbills occur in the north of Scotland (mostly north of Glasgow-Edinburgh) and occur in native Scots pinewood and plantations with Scots pine and larch. Deeside and Speyside are usually the main areas mentioned for this species. However, the commonest crossbill in many of the old native pinewoods is the Parrot crossbill.
I should add that although I live within the range of the Scottish crossbill (and other people have recorded them within three miles of my house), I can't reliably say I've ever seen one. I've been recording the calls of crossbills (the only reliable ID method) for the past year or so and all the crossbills I've encountered in my local woods have been Common crossbills. There are also several different 'types' of Common Crossbills with different calls, which could also possibly be separate species. It's a minefield!
Scottish crossbills occur in the north of Scotland (mostly north of Glasgow-Edinburgh) and occur in native Scots pinewood and plantations with Scots pine and larch. Deeside and Speyside are usually the main areas mentioned for this species. However, the commonest crossbill in many of the old native pinewoods is the Parrot crossbill.
I should add that although I live within the range of the Scottish crossbill (and other people have recorded them within three miles of my house), I can't reliably say I've ever seen one. I've been recording the calls of crossbills (the only reliable ID method) for the past year or so and all the crossbills I've encountered in my local woods have been Common crossbills. There are also several different 'types' of Common Crossbills with different calls, which could also possibly be separate species. It's a minefield!
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Capercaillie71
Well-known member
Some of the complexities involved in crossbill ID and taxonomy (and the heated arguments it can create) are apparent in the following threads:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=65692
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=9413
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=78689
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=65692
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=9413
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=78689
They do now, although this has only been discovered fairly recently.
StuartReeves
Local rarity
I believe the colonisation was also fairly recent, probably stemming from the very large influx of Crossbills in 1990.
Capercaillie71
Well-known member
Probably, although there is also a theory that some of the birds that were previously classed as Scottish were Parrots all along.
Capercaillie71
Well-known member
Some experts are confident they can detect the different calls by ear, but for most of us mere mortals, the sonogram is required to be sure.
I know a lot of people think that it shouldn't be treated as a species because of this requirement, but to be honest I think that just reflects a general bias among birders towards visual rather than audio cues for ID, which isn't reflected in the bird's own lives. After all, I bet chiffchaffs don't look at primary projections before selecting their mate.
Getting a sonogram is not particularly difficult, or technical (see this), it just means you can't ID the bird on the spot. Or even worse, your recordings show that you were looking at a mixed species flock, and you don't know which ones were making what call
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Capercaillie71
Well-known member
By the way, I notice that no-one has owned up to having seen a Scottish Crossbill yet!
StuartReeves
Local rarity
Me Sir, me Sir! Though spending time in the field with one of the experts looking for, and at, colour-ringed birds certainly helped.
The 'discovery' of Parrot Crossbills in NE Scotland also happened to coincide with several projects which were live catching and measuring birds in significnt numbers (Marquiss and Rae, Summers et al).
Linz
That is my belief, maybe even my theory as expressed on this Forum (!?).................however, it does not explain the historical museum specimens that are intermediate in size, and indeed the same 'intermediate' billed birds that are present in NE Scotland in the present day. These same 'intermediate' birds have not been discovered anywhere telse, though some Med sub-species of curvirosta are similar in morphology and even call structure.
I certainly believe that birds that we currently call 'Parrot' types have been present breeding in Scotland for at least several hundred, if not thousand, years. No-one really caught them (or sound recorded them ) in decent numbers until the 90's so we didn't know ! Alan Knox may be able to verify that as he sound recorded many birds in Deeside in the 70's and 80's, however the published calls I have seen are either Common type calls or what we today would call Parrot type calls (eg BWP).
Lindsay
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Saw some yesterday, got some decent sound recordings too.
For those wanting to see a picture of one, the bird in my Avatar is a male from a breeding pair, near to the nest and were sound recorded on 3 separate occasions. Both birds gave 3C calls which are currently classed as Scottish Crossbill. There is a different pic of the same bird on a thread on here somewhere as well just search "Capercaillie in June" or something !
Linz
IanF
Moderator
Thanks for that - I've found it and updated Opus :t:
Thread here - http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=57627
speyspotter
Member
Yep , yesterday[loch garten], I'm no expert but I was in very good company.
jpoyner
Well-known member
Am very interested in what work is being done concerning integration with Parrots and "Scottish" types. I don't see why hybridisation isn't possible especially within such a limited population size of Parrots? Can we rule out hybrids from the equation in current Crossbill studies. In winter all of the resident Crossbills here seem to flock, so I presume they contain both "species". I have certainly seen birds amongst Parrot groups which were smaller, unidentifiable large-billed type. I am intrigued as to what these birds are and their relationship to the identifiable Parrots they are with.
Could the arrival of Parrots potentially now just dilute the small population of Scottish types to the point of their extinction as an "identifiable" species (or sub-species, depending on your point of view, and the possiblity that Alan Knox never went on holiday to the Med. )
J
Could the arrival of Parrots potentially now just dilute the small population of Scottish types to the point of their extinction as an "identifiable" species (or sub-species, depending on your point of view, and the possiblity that Alan Knox never went on holiday to the Med.
)J
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