luciae (1 Viewer)

I agree what's written in the key about Gampsorhynchus torquatus luciae in terms of (OD):

Named in honour of Mme. A. Varenne

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And there was a relationship between Alexandre Varenne and Delacours as we see in OD of Garrulax castanotis varennei.

I do not agree on this part of the key:

was named Marguerite (d. 2001)

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It is true that Varenne was married with in the year 1932 with Marguerite Migeot (at that date 34 years old) but the OD is from 1926 a date when Varenne was married with Marie-Mélanie Foussadier. He married her 1909 and she died before he married a second time. All to find in here.

Maybe the name derived from Mélanie (= Lucy or Lucie as in The Eponym Dictionary of Birds)?

If her she seems to be born 9th August 1869 in Paris.

Taphrospilus said:

It is true that Varenne was married with in the year 1932 with Marguerite Migeot (at that date 34 years old) but the OD is from 1926 a date when Varenne was married with Marie-Mélanie Foussadier. He married her 1909 and she died before he married a second time. All to find in here.

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A bit strangely, though, this text calls her Marie-Mélanie on the five first instances only; it then switches to "Marie-Amélie", and uses this name only, seven times until the end of the document.
(Not that this is really important, but the text doesn't say Marguerite was 34 years old at the time she married him; it says she was 34 years younger than Marie-"Amélie". She was born in 1904, hence must have been 27 or 28 in 1932.)

Maybe the name derived from Mélanie (= Lucy or Lucie as in The Eponym Dictionary of Birds)?

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I don't really see how one could be derived from the other -- the meanings of the two names are pretty much opposed...
(Mélanie is from Greek μέλας, black or dark; Lucie is from Latin lux, light or brightness.)

And Amélie = Lucie?

Amélie is most likely from old Germanic amal, work or energy. (Albeit in some places, it is also said to be related to Latin aemulus, striving earnestly after, emulating, rivalling, vying with, emulous. Either way, it doesn't seem related to brightness or light either.)

Anyway, Mélanie is correct.

She is in the archives of the Parisian État civil: [here], Type de document: "naissances", Arrondissement: "12"; Année: "1869"; Date de l'acte (jj/mm/aaaa): "09/08/1869"; hit "Rechercher" and open the file "2 août 1869 (acte n° 1910) - 22 août 1869 (acte n° 2090)"; go to image 11/31, lower left. She was initially registered as Marie Mélanie Parly, by the surname of her mother Fanny Parly, who was not married with the father. In the margin are notes that say her father, Victor Léon Foussadier, recognized her as his natural daughter about a year later. And a note that states she married Alexandre Claude Varenne on 24 Dec 1909.

Well noted, and well questioned, Martin ... and well sorted, Laurent! :t:

Thereby (with no knowledge of French, and no other interest than pure curiosity) is this the correct interpretation ... ?

• the subspecies Gampsorhynchus torquatus luciae DELACOUR 1926 (OD in Post #1):

Named in honour of Mme. A. Varenne

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... which is/was Marie Mélanie Varenne (no hyphen in the birth register) née Parly (1869–1932), a k a "Marie-Mélanie Foussadier", first wife of the French journalist, politician and diplomat Alexandre Claude Varenne (1870–1947), whom she married 24th of December 1909 (her companion since 1895, here). I assume the later often used hyphen is the usual French way of separating/showing first names vs (often parted) surname/s.

She was the daughter of the unmarried Fanny Parly and Victor Léon Foussadier (Mr. Foussadier recognized her as his natural daughter in 1910, thereafter making her name; Marie Mélanie Foussadier). Shortly after the death of Marie Mélanie in 1832 her husband Alexandre Varenne remarried with the much younger Marguerite Migeot (1904–2001), who he´d had met in the mid 1920's, during his years in Cambodia.

A Photo of the Varenne Couple ....!? ("LE GOUVERNEUR GENERAL VARENNE et SON EPOUSE MARGUERITE") is found here. If it truly is "Marguerite" (born in 1904) on the picture, as is claimed by the text below it, is beyond my understanding, either way; even if so, as it´s looks like the photo was taken in French Indochina (today's Cambodia) during Mr. Varennes term as Governor General (1925-1928) she (that is, if it really is Marguerite?) couldn´t, at that point, been more than his forthcoming wife. Also compare with the photo of "Marie-Mélanie Foussadier et Alexandre Varenne", here.

However, the remaining main question is still; why "luciæ" ... ?

Was she maybe called "Lucie" as claimed in The Eponym Dictionary of Birds. Or was she simply (if so on request by Mr. Varenne?) the "light of his light of his life", as in Lucie from the Latin lux (light, shining)

Could it maybe be a different Madame Varenne, A Sister-in-Law participating/visiting during their stay in South East Asia? Or ... (but highly unlikely) a wife of a completely different Mr. A. Varenne? In any case; it cannot be his mother, Madame Varenne, as she was named Françoise née Marc (died 1894).

One thing that makes me suspicious towards the claim in The Eponym Dictionary of Birds of a "Lucie Varenne" is that I cannot find any trace what-so-ever of such a person. None. And that´s fairly odd for a "wife" of such a well-documented person.

Don´t hesitate to remark on even the smallest detail above!

Björn

PS. Interesting to note that Monsieur Varenne was gouverneur général de l’Indochine during "18 novembre 1925 - janvier 1928", the tenure right in between the second and third term for Mr. Monguillot, recently discussed (here). Mr. Delacour seems to have been quite fond of those French Diplomats!
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question is still; why "luciæ" ... ?

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"Could it maybe be a different Madame Varenne, A Sister-in-Law participating/visiting during their stay in South East Asia? Or ... (but highly unlikely) a wife of a completely different Mr. A. Varenne? In any case; it cannot be his mother, Madame Varenne, as she was named Françoise née Marc (died 1894)." Good thinkimg! Because I also thought this.

Delacour seems to have been quite fond of those French Diplomats!

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From his autobiography: https://books.google.com/books?id=h...+Delacour"&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Varenne .

Calalp said:

I assume the later often used hyphen is the usual French way of separating/showing first names vs (often parted) surname/s.

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Although this type of thing has been done in the past (e.g. on old ship crew lists), it was not a "usual French way" during the 20th C. I would expect the use of the hyphen to reflect the fact that she effectively used the two names as a compound one; i.e., that in real life she was called "Marie Mélanie", not just "Marie" or just "Mélanie" (or "Lucie", FWIW).

She was the daughter of the unmarried Fanny Parly and Victor Léon Foussadier (Mr. Foussadier recognized her as his natural daughter in 1910, thereafter making her name; Marie Mélanie Foussadier).

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(That was in 1870, of course--on the [something]-ninth of August. Almost certainly 29th, but the signature of the first note extends across this word and I can't really read the word.)

A Photo of the Varenne Couple ....!? ("LE GOUVERNEUR GENERAL VARENNE et SON EPOUSE MARGUERITE") is found here. If it truly is "Marguerite" (born in 1904) on the picture, as is claimed by the text below it, is beyond my understanding, either way; even if so, as it´s looks like the photo was taken in French Indochina (today's Cambodia) during Mr. Varennes term as Governor General (1925-1928) she (that is, if it really is Marguerite?) couldn´t, at that point, been more than his forthcoming wife.

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I think it's Marguerite, and this picture was taken at a later date. There's a couple of pictures showing Varenne in official context while he was Gov.-Gen. just a bit lower on that page. Check the colour of his beard...

Could it maybe be a different Madame Varenne, A Sister-in-Law participating/visiting during their stay in South East Asia? Or ... (but highly unlikely) a wife of a completely different Mr. A. Varenne? In any case; it cannot be his mother, Madame Varenne, as she was named Françoise née Marc (died 1894).

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When someone is called "Mme A. Varenne", "A." is either her own initial or that of her husband. If her initial, it would conflict with juliae in just the same way as "Marie Mélanie" does, thus I would assume it was her husband's. And with "H.E. M. A. Varenne" cited on the previous page...

However, the remaining main question is still; why "luciæ" ... ?

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I have no clue either.

I have been wondering about a simple mistake, but that would require that he did not know her personally. And probably also that he was not close to Varenne himself at this time. The fact that he dined with him once a month in Paris (presumably later in his life, as this would not have been possible when Varenne was in Indochina) does not necessarily prove this wrong, I think; but it doesn't support it either, obviously.

l_raty said:

...That was in 1870, of course ...

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Of course, Laurent, of course!!!

Sigh! My sloppy mistake: From 1870 (until 1909) a k a Miss (or Mademoiselle) Foussadier.

__

Here´s a real longshot ... following Mark's comment:

mb1848 said:

...
From his autobiography: https://books.google.com/books?id=h...+Delacour"&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Varenne .

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Maybe Delacour simply confused the wifes of his various friends? Maybe he was thinking of the wife of "Pierre Pasquier" [i.e. Pierre Marie Antoine Pasquier (1877–1934), here], Résident supérieur en Annam (1921), Governor-General of French Indochina (1928-1934) ... ?

Apparently his wife (from 1902) was Elise Pasquier (1882–1962).

In my ears Elise sounds far more similar to luciae.

For what it´s worth.

Calalp said:

Apparently his wife (from 1902) was Elise Pasquier (1882–1962).

In my ears Elise sounds far more similar to luciae.

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Élise is a shortened version of Élisabeth, from Hebrew Elisheba, the name of the wife of Aaron in the Bible, meaning "God is her oath".

...But Delacour dedicated another subspecies to "Mme P. Pasquier" in the very same paper: Anthreptes hypogrammica lisettae ("Lisette" is a diminutive of, i.a., Élise, and is presumably how she was called), on [p. 22]. This, I feel, would make it all the more unlikely that luciae might have been intended to refer to her.

Calalp said:

Maybe Delacour simply confused the wifes of his various friends? .

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Thought similar abour Lucie Aubrac (1912-2007) mentioned in the texts about Varenne in my original post. But maybe to young at the date of description.

l_raty said:

...But Delacour dedicated another subspecies to "Mme P. Pasquier" in the very same paper: Anthreptes hypogrammica lisettae ("Lisette" is a diminutive of, i.a., Élise, and is presumably how she was called), on [p. 22]. This, I feel, would make it all the more unlikely that luciae might have been intended to refer to her.

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Missed that one Laurent! And I agree, also with Martin.

A summary of Delacour's ten years of collecting in French Indochina is to be read, here.

And here I fold on this bird, leaving the question soaring:

Why luciae?
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chauleti

Another one from the same paper.

Cissa hypoleuca chauleti [OD].

Type in the French Museum. ♀.Thua-Lua (Annam), Dec. 10, 1925. Collected by J. Delacour, No. 1777.
(Named in honour of M. Chaulet, who procured us the specimen.)

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Currently the information in the Key is limited to a citation of the OD. See also Hennache & Dickinson 2000 [here]:

L’étiquette porte la mention suivante : « envoyé par Mr Chaulet de Thua Luu, Prov. de Huê près col des Nuages. Venu de la gare de Thua Luu ».

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and Voisin & Voisin 2016 [here]:

envoyé par M. Chaulet de Thua Lua, / Prov. de Huo - Près col Nuages /// Localité: Venu de la gare de Thuà-Lua

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I was after the first name of a possible wife, which I did not find. However, in the Annuaire général de l'indochine for 1925 [here], I did find:

[SERVICE FORESTIER DE L'ANNAM]
[...]
CANTONNEMENT DE HUÉ
[...]
THUA-LUU: M. Chaulet (Gilbert-Emile), garde général de 2e classe des Forêts, chef de division.

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(= Annam Forestry Service - Cantonment of Hué - Thua-Luu: M. Chaulet (Gilbert-Emile), second-class general Forest guard, chief of division.)
...which seems to me to be a very reasonable guess for the identity of the dedicatee.

(And, yes, in this document the first names are all systematically hyphenated, thus I have to admit that, indeed, there were places where this was still done at this time. Note it's not clearly an attempt to make them recognizable from the surnames, though; the parentheses were enough for this.)

If a mistake, it was in any case not immediately noticed. In:
Delacour J, Jabouille P. 1927. Recherches ornithologiques dans les provinces du Tranninh (Laos), de Thua-Thien et de Kontoum (Annam) et quelques autres régions de l'Indochine française. Lecerf, Paris.
...the same dedication is repeated (albeit in French): [here].

C. h. chauleti

l_raty said:

... M. Chaulet (Gilbert-Emile), second-class general Forest guard, chief of division.)
...which seems to me to be a very reasonable guess for the identity of the dedicatee.

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Maybe we can forget the "Emile" Part on this one... ?

In Bulletin administratif de l'Annam - Année 1925, No 24 (here) he´s: "Chaulet, Gilbert Pierre" (here) who, in the 1921 issue (in No. 3) is mentioned as: "M. Chaulet (Gilbert Pierre) Garde principal de 2e classe des Forêts rentrant de congé, est nommé Chef de la Division de Thua-Luu en remplecement ..." (here).

In my mind this ought to (at least could) be the same as this guy [suddenly three first names! Double-hyphenated ] from 1916: "Chaulet (Pierre-Gilbert-Georges), garde principal des Forêts, chef des divisions de Chon-thanh et Thi-tinh" (here).

Or?

Björn

PS. He was apparently still alive in 1936 (here) and 1940 (here)
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Continuation on luciae ...

Quick return to "Gampsorhynchus rufulus luciæ" DELACOUR 1926 ... (dealt with in post #1-8).

One more/last try on this one, apparently hard to let go of, as well as yet another long-shot, as it just struck me ... (getting into a Christmas mood I guess).

Could lucia possibly be coined from Lucie as in Luc, from the Latin lux (light, shining) in the meaning "Light of Christ", a well-known concept in Christianity? As in a somewhat odd, awkward (and roundabout) way of honouring Mme Varenne; "Named in honour of Mme. A. Varenne" [i.e. the wife of Alexandre Varenne] hence she, Marie Mélanie (Foussadier née Parly), became Mrs Varenne on Christmas Eve (24th December 1909) ... on that particular day, when the festive season starts.

Here in Sweden Christmas is Ljusets högtid (meaning "the Feast of Light"), the main Event of "the High festivals" ... In Sweden Christmas Eve (the 24th) is the main day, the Peak of Christmas. If this is the same in France (and, if so also, in French Indochina), is however unknown to me. Or is this line of thought unthinkable, in Latin vs French Culture?

It´s simply an idea, a suggestion ... for what it´s worth!

Björn

PS. In any case; not linked to Saint Lucy's Day, 13 Dec. (Lucia-dagen, in Swedish, in memory of the Catholic Saint Lucia, of Syracuse, Sicily (Saint Lucy). A day that I think we Swedes are just about alone to celebrate (except for the Italians, of course).

PPS. If nothing else this post can be considered as an awkward way of whishing everyone here on BirdForum a: very Merry Christmas!
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Yes, a Merry Christmas to all on Birdforum. But I am getting blue thinking Björn's desk has been cleared off and we will not have any little mysteries to solve.

Taphrospilus said:

Maybe the name derived from Mélanie (= Lucy or Lucie as in The Eponym Dictionary of Birds)?

If her she seems to be born 9th August 1869 in Paris.

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​

The Eponym Dictionary of Birds claims:

Collared Babbler Gampsorhynchus torquatus luciae Delacour, 1926
Madame Lucie Varenne was in Indochina (1925-1927) where her husband Ale xandre Claude Varenne, was Governor-General.

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So an example of pure speculation!

Björn Bergenholtz said:

• the subspecies Gampsorhynchus torquatus luciae DELACOUR 1926 (OD in Post #1): ... which is/was Marie Mélanie Varenne (no hyphen in the birth register) née Parly (1869–1932), a k a "Marie-Mélanie Foussadier", first wife of the French journalist, politician and diplomat Alexandre Claude Varenne (1870–1947), whom she married 24th of December 1909 (her companion since 1895, here). I assume the later often used hyphen is the usual French way of separating/showing first names vs (often parted) surname/s.

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By the way is the death year 1932 confirmed by an official document? Would mean a smooth transition to Marguerite Migeot (he married her in 1932) without losing to much time.

Taphrospilus said:

By the way is the death year 1932 confirmed by an official document?

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Le Figaro, 17 Apr 1932: Figaro : journal non politique | 1932-04-17 | Gallica

l_raty said:

Chaulet (Gilbert-Emile)

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Just curious why the key do not consider him? Anyway do we know his life dates?

The rest wat Laurent mentioned somehow fits to what's written in The Eponym Dictionary of Birds

Chaulet's Yellow Cissa Cissa hypoleuca chauleti Delacour, 1926 [Alt. Indochinese Green Magpie ssp.]
Mr Chaulet (DNF) was resident in Huê province of what is now Vietnam. He was in overall charge of the forestry in the region. Delacours etymology states: 'Named in honour of of M. Chaulet, who procured us the specimen'.

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