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April 2006 theme challenge – voting booth - 'Birds and Water' (1 Viewer)

Select your favourite 'Birds and Water' photo!

  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/89337/sort/2/cat/533/page/1]Taking off[

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/89336/sort/2/cat/533/page/1]Split secon

    Votes: 14 8.9%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/89270/sort/2/cat/533/page/1]Birds and W

    Votes: 7 4.5%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/89269/sort/2/cat/533/page/1]making a sp

    Votes: 5 3.2%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/89260/sort/2/cat/533/page/1]Gotcha![/ur

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/89115/sort/2/cat/533/page/1]Common Guil

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/88981/sort/2/cat/533/page/1]morning bat

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/88880/sort/2/cat/533/page/1]purple gall

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/88829/sort/2/cat/533/page/1]I Got It[/u

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/88782/sort/2/cat/533/page/2]Excuse me..

    Votes: 18 11.5%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/88753/sort/2/cat/533/page/2]resting[/ur

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/88742/sort/2/cat/533/page/2]Mandarin Du

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/88600/sort/2/cat/533/page/2]Pink all ov

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/88472/sort/2/cat/533/page/2]Feeding[/ur

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/88293/sort/2/cat/533/page/2]"Come on in

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/88292/sort/2/cat/533/page/2]So much wat

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/88092/sort/2/cat/533/page/2]Egret Fishi

    Votes: 4 2.5%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php?photo=87961&nocache=1]Reflection[/url]

    Votes: 5 3.2%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/87947/sort/2/cat/533/page/2]Dinner on t

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/87804/sort/2/cat/533/page/3]Coming home

    Votes: 8 5.1%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/87509/sort/2/cat/533/page/3]Egret Fishi

    Votes: 17 10.8%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/87417/sort/2/cat/533/page/3]Rock sparro

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/87408/sort/2/cat/533/page/3]Fishing[/ur

    Votes: 15 9.6%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/87405/sort/2/cat/533/page/3]Kentish plo

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/87392/sort/2/cat/533/page/3]What waterf

    Votes: 10 6.4%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/87389/sort/2/cat/533/page/3]Atacama Lun

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/87374/sort/2/cat/533/page/3]Cinnamon Te

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/87364/sort/2/cat/533/page/3]Mallard Juv

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/87224/sort/2/cat/533/page/3]American Av

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • [url=http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/86944/sort/2/cat/533/page/3]Fresh Catch

    Votes: 36 22.9%

  • Total voters
    157
  • Poll closed .
Extremely hard to choose this time. High quality all round.

I think digiscopers and DSLR users can be in the same serie. By experience I know that people feel some sympathy or pity for digiscopers and give you a little extra bonus for that. There are themes that doesn´t give hope for scopers but there are also themes that go well. It is no shame if my Skoda doesn´t beat Ferrari. It´s still nice to participate. Having digiscoping one months theme could be also nice to those who have changed to DSLR!! Worth considering.. :)

Cheers
Aki
 
Since October 2005, the comp has been won once by a digiscoped image. The point about DSLR over Digiscoping is not about the photographer, it is about the equipment. Any decent DSLR with a good zoom or prime lens can focus faster, get a split second timing far better and invariably has a faster CCD. The DSLR is really unparalled for action shots compared to using a small digital and scope. They really are not in the same league.

As for distance it would appear that the overall majority of the photos were quite close to the subject hence the amount of detail etc. Digiscoping is better for distant birds but the quality is not upto the standard of a DSLR on closer subjects.

As to the equipment used in the comp, a little analysis of camera, number of times used, price and then also the lens.

20D 10 £749
1D 3 £2379
350D 6 £459
10D 1 £?
300D 1 £550
D70 4 £579
D100 1 £699
D200 1 £1169
D2 1 £2049
Oly e1 1 £649

Canon 100-400 IS 1 £1089
400mm DO 3 £3949
400 5.6 3 £859
EF 200 2 £?
300 IS 2.8 1 £3099
70-300 IS USM 1 £369
500 F4 3 £?
Tamron 200-500 1 £669
Sigma zoom to 500 6 £548

That is a quick summary and mail order prices. So the equipment has nothing to do with the quality of the photo? Then why have such expensive equipment?

Perhaps to gauge what members feel about this subject, and if there is support out there to have a separate comp, make up a thread and request a vote or opinions.
 
Birding and bird photography are both hobbies which can drain money from your pocket. Before I even picked up a camera I had been a fanatical birder for 20 years. I used Swarovski EL 8.5x42's and a Leica Televid Scope. Add on a decent tripod and eye-piece and you're talking about $4375.

This is way more than I paid for my 10D and a 300/4 lens, my first bird photography gear. Like suleesia, at the time I was living in Malaysia and shooting from a car, and that gear was enough.

As I started to make a living from my images, I wanted to shoot different subjects, birds in flight, birds in very early golden light etc. The 300/4 just can't do that. I sold my scope and put that cash towards my 500mm.

Photography and birding have always been money games, not all cameras and lenses are equal, not all competitions are fair. Yes, I now use a 1DsMarkII and a 500/4, but suleesia shot the Kingfisher with his set-up at a fraction of the cost...whose getting the votes?

And quite rightly too, that shot is artistically very pleasing indeed and deserves to win.

A good shot is a good shot. Maybe the difference in quality also reflects the amount of time some people put into getting their images....I know Guy spends absolutley hours in a cramped little hide in the woods to capture some of his images.

Split second Timing: D70 and Tamron 200-500 = GBP1128

A fantastic shot and for less than the price of a decent scope!!! Let alone camera..and as DOC states in his caption: "and after endless hours + thousands of pictures-" He didn't just walk down to the water, see a Kingfisher and get lucky.

I know people with 1Ds2's and 600/4's who take terrible pictures. They wouldn't know a good shot if it bit them. Good gear helps, but you need to know how to use it AND put the time in...

What is capable by digiscoping?, anyone doubting what can be achieved should check out Ann Cooks website: www.birdsofmanitoba.com

Good gear is not a passport to good shots..There is a difference in mindset between the people who plan their pictures and put the time and effort into getting them, and others who simply walk through the park, see a Duck having a bath and shoot.

Let's give credit where it's due..
 
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There are some very good points being made here on all sides. The kind of photo competitions run here should depend on just how BF wants to cater to it's various Member-photographers. I believe Ian's first reply is undeniably correct in stating: "Perhaps more bird photographers are swapping to DSLRs? Perhaps this month's theme was more suited to use of DSLR? Perhaps there are other reasons."

I'll continue to enter my digiscopes when I have a decent shot to enter, but you can bet it won't be in flight, and probably not water categories as both favor a fast-shutter action shot with good camera mobility to follow or anticipate the subject.

If we label digiscopers as simply "those who refuse to buy and shoot with DSLR equipment," that is tantamount to saying that if they want to win contests, they should stop spending most of their "birding" time actually birding with their scopes, and SWITCH to photography-centered outings, waiting in blinds, and using the more versatile and easy to shoot-with DSLR equipment. Neither bad nor good, it's a matter of viewpoint. But pretending that compact cameras and digiscoping will hold their own with DSLR's is silly. Sure you can do more with a very far off bird. So what? Seen any of those produce winning shots lately?

I don't mind at all that some categories will be extremely hard for digiscopers; they're great categories to hold each year, and there are plenty others that I can still enter somewhat competitively; and I agree it's for FUN... up to the point where you believe you can never win.. then it becomes aimless repetition.

So if BF wants to continue to cater in a substantial way to the non-DSLR shooters, it might consider with the low number of entries (is that because compacts and scopes never win anymore??) holding side-by-side competitions of "open" and compact/digiscoped-only events, say twice per year on a non-flight, non-water themed month. In fact digiscoped or compact need not have a theme for twice per year comps. This way, instead of 4 non-DSLR entrants, the best shots would be saved up for the special limited-entrant comps and they would be very well represented twice per year. I believe both groups would vote/endorse/enjoy the other's final selection group, and there would be much less a bone of contention about who's being favored most at BF. Times they are a'changin', but I'd like to see this group which comprised 15% of April's entries have a few chances to compete among themselves on a "perceived" more level playing field. Regardless, we have a great site, great comps, with fine entries from all shooter-types every month.
 
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Forcreeks response shames me for it's eloquence in presenting this point of view of the comp. However no matter in what way the viewpoint is presented it remains a vital consideration for this comp to be able to continue and attract all members of the forum.

Robert
 
Dogiscoping as an art is a relatively recent phenomenon, starting as a way for birders to get record shots of species they were watching. With the inovation by the late and much missed Laurence Poh of Malaysia and the phenomenal work of people like Ann Cook, digiscoping has been shown to be a very effective tool for producing excellent art.

Before I bought my first DSLR I dabbled for a couple of months with digiscoping as I had a decent scope. I know how difficult it is to get sharp, well composed images. So hard in fact, I decided to go down the DSLR route. I made a decision to be a bird photographer first and a birder second. I suspect most digi-scopers are birders first and bird-photographers second.

There are very very few digi-scopers out there with the skills and techniques to produce the highest quality images, much in the same way as there aren't that many great DSLR bird photographers. I think the best digi-scoping work fairs pretty well against good DSLR work, and in a competition which isn't specific to flight or fast action content both could compete against each other.

As far as competions go, I think a digi-scoping only comp isn't a bad idea, but then again how far should one go with demarcation? In the flight shots comp later in the year, am I at a disadvantage because I have 5 frames a second against some who have 8? They have a 37.5% better chance of nailing a shot!! I'm not bothered in the slightest.

I think the winners of the comps tend to be the people who put the time and effort in to get their shots. Birdforum is a very diverse cross-section of photographers of all levels. Some are pro and make a living from their art, others casual shooters with a desire and passion to record what they see.

Obviously this is not a level playing-field as far as ability is concerned, should those of us with top of the line gear not enter comps, or, should we just leave it as it is so all can enjoy the images posted...The quality is increasing which indicates we're all getting better, surely that's the point right?
 
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Dr Manjeet Singh said:
Well i have voted and hope the best photo wins-theme- bird and water-so guys and girls i picked the pics that was closest to the theme.Now can any one tell me-why the debate of cameras-i believe the photographer makes the shot not the equipment-that is what i believe and how close your pics relates to the theme.Cheers may the best man or women win.As for the make up on pics(i call it make up)-the Judges are wise enough to know who has enhanced their pics.But come to think -isnt the compation for FUN :'D not for gaining a name for oneself-So lets have fun-.Regards to all who agree or dont agree. :t: Oh i voted for split second timing(heeee) :t:
Well said Dr Manjeet - I thought this was just a "Fun competition" as well and not going to the extremes of why some equipment is better than others. If 70 to over 100 pictures are in the competition where 30 get through this will always mean disapointed people. Why get so worked up over it.

When all comes to all I have seen bad photos taken with DSLR cameras and some amazing ones taken with the most simple of equipment (ie Pavlik and his old zenith camera).

I do agree with Woody about having a few more with artwork allowed.
 
alibenn said:
Digiscoping as an art is a relatively recent phenomenon, starting as a way for birders to get record shots of species they were watching. With the inovation by the late and much missed Laurence Poh of Malaysia and the phenomenal work of people like Ann Cook, digiscoping has been shown to be a very effective tool for producing excellent art.

Before I bought my first DSLR I dabbled for a couple of months with digiscoping as I had a decent scope. I know how difficult it is to get sharp, well composed images. So hard in fact, I decided to go down the DSLR route. I made a decision to be a bird photographer first and a birder second. I suspect most digi-scopers are birders first and bird-photographers second.

There are very very few digi-scopers out there with the skills and techniques to produce the highest quality images, much in the same way as there aren't that many great DSLR bird photographers. I think the best digi-scoping work fairs pretty well against good DSLR work, and in a competition which isn't specific to flight or fast action content both could compete against each other.

As far as competions go, I think a digi-scoping only comp isn't a bad idea, but then again how far should one go with demarcation? In the flight shots comp later in the year, am I at a disadvantage because I have 5 frames a second against some who have 8? They have a 37.5% better chance of nailing a shot!! I'm not bothered in the slightest.

I think the winners of the comps tend to be the people who put the time and effort in to get their shots. Birdforum is a very diverse cross-section of photographers of all levels. Some are pro and make a living from their art, others casual shooters with a desire and passion to record what they see.

Obviously this is not a level playing-field as far as ability is concerned, should those of us with top of the line gear not enter comps, or, should we just leave it as it is so all can enjoy the images posted...The quality is increasing which indicates we're all getting better, surely that's the point right?
I tend to agree with your line of thinking. There are some very credable digiscopers producing first class results and without doubt it's a more difficult technique than the 'point and shoot'-ability of DSLRs. However even DSLRs can produce poor results.

Digiscoping can produce comparable results to a DSLR and sometimes better. Several times I've had better results from digiscoping than from using a DSLR - in water settings as well - primarily because of the extra reach. You just have to view the Gallery to see the high quality of many digiscoped images.

It's not just about having expensive cameras and lenses on a DSLR. There are numerous factors whether you get a good photo such as ability, location, being in the right place at the right time whether by planning or good fortune. In some areas of the World birds are very approachable and in some areas they're not. Obviously equipment plays a part but it's not the whole story.

'Where do we draw the line?' Do we hold separate competitions for compact cameras, digiscopers and DSLR owners or do we divide things further on the basis of price bands of equipment which some seem to be suggesting?

With digiscoping being such a popular technique and having such a strong following on Bird Forum I don't see a problem with running a separate competition once in a while to run alongside the established competition. I do though feel it's a shame that some digiscopers feel too 'disadvantaged' to enter the monthly challenges. The aim of the competitions has always been to encourage participation whether through submitting entries or viewing the work of other members.
 
I think that the standard of images in this competition hit an all time high. They are wonderful. I voted for Egret Fishing by Alibenn because I thought that it was a superb image and really fitted the theme.
As far as DSLR vs digiscoping goes I think that we are fine the way things are.
I have both setups but didn't have a recent picture worth entering in this month's competion. If we start to break things down too much, should I claim that it's not fair for me with only a 75-300 mm zoom to have to compete with someone with a 600 zoom plus x2 converter. What about the issue of pro vs amateur? What about where people live? It's tough to make one of my little feeder birds have the impact of a picture someone took on their trip to Africa, Florida or where ever. There are so many variables. It is supposed to be for fun and too much playing around with the rules will just become devisive. If once a year or so there were seperate catagories for DSLRs, P&Ss and digiscoped, well, it might be fun but I don't think it's needed on a regular basis. If we do end up doing something like that, I suggest an open theme and allow us to enter as many catagories as we wish.
 
I think that it shows in the later posts that many are missing the point. As the current format stands irrespective of the monthly subject, the comp favours DSLRs. In this month all the shots were very good so an argument that one has seen poor shots taken with DSLR is irrelevant because they would never be selected for the final viewing. Contrary to what Snowyowl wrote things are not fine as they are, thta is an Ostrich stance.

Invariably the winners of the comps are usually action shots which by and large can only be achieved by DSLR. The old adage that if it is not broke don't fix it does not mean there is no room for discussion and revision. I also believe some of you are splitting hairs talking of what size lens, how many shots in a burst etc. Contrary to some views it is not equipment that takes bad shots or good shots it is the user. There is a straight forward division either one used a DSLR or digiscoped no further demarcation needs to be made.

Robert
 
Hey guys,
It is for fun.
We're taking part in a world wide competiton which runs once a month - wow - it's like the world cup every month.
I'm entering for fun - true I'm selecting shots that I think are good enough - but that is about my personal endeavour and pride in my work.
I've only just joined and I'm looking forward to moving forward with my art and hopefully getting known for interesting shots regardless of equipment.

I'm enjoying this debate but I must say, nevertheless, big thanks to the organizers (you know who you are) for keeping the show going. :clap:
 
Robert L Jarvis said:
I think that it shows in the later posts that many are missing the point. As the current format stands irrespective of the monthly subject, the comp favours DSLRs. In this month all the shots were very good so an argument that one has seen poor shots taken with DSLR is irrelevant because they would never be selected for the final viewing. Contrary to what Snowyowl wrote things are not fine as they are, thta is an Ostrich stance.

Invariably the winners of the comps are usually action shots which by and large can only be achieved by DSLR. The old adage that if it is not broke don't fix it does not mean there is no room for discussion and revision. I also believe some of you are splitting hairs talking of what size lens, how many shots in a burst etc. Contrary to some views it is not equipment that takes bad shots or good shots it is the user. There is a straight forward division either one used a DSLR or digiscoped no further demarcation needs to be made.

Robert
Robert, you're contradicting yourself....and/or not reading what others are writing.

Specifically in my posts I have said that I have seen terrible shots taken with 600/4 on 1Ds2's and brilliant images by the likes of Ann Cook taken with a digiscoping system. That actually means its the user not the gear, so you're not breaking new ground with that statement.

As for what you said here: "In this month all the shots were very good so an argument that one has seen poor shots taken with DSLR is irrelevant because they would never be selected for the final viewing."

In a final format where 30 shots are selected for final voting, they will be the best 30, that does not guarantee their quality. There could be 6 great shots, 17 good shots and 7 less terrible than the rest that didn't make the final 30 cut. DSLR gear is not a passport to taking good shots!!!

As for splitting hairs, you cannot compare the reach and ability of a Canon 600/4 with a Tamron 70-200. Both are taken with DSLR's, it's 70% lens and 30% body quality that makes the difference. The difference between those two systems is greater than that of Digi-scoping to DSLR's.

Only 2/12 of the monthly comps really favour DSLR's...

Like I said before, and I mean this in a very respectful way. There may be just a handfull of digi-scopers in the world who take truly wonderful images. The majority are taking record shots.

Equally with DSLR's, there are 100's of thousands of people out there with 20D's and 100-400 lenses who are snappers.

To repeat myself yet again, there is a huge distinction between the people who spend 8 hours in a hide to get a shot of a skulking warbler, and those who walk around their local wildlife reserve on a Sunday afternoon.

My Egret shot took two weeks to get. Two weeks of getting up every morning at 4:30am, cycling 8 miles in the dark with my gear and tripod on my back, then sitting in freezing waist deep mud, waiting for the combination of light, reflection and action. All the time the birds getting flushed by Chinese crab collectors. Now, I'm not looking for a medal, that's what I do, it's my job.

You are dead right, the shots that are winning the comps are the best shots, maybe if someone spends $10000 on their gear they're a little more motivated.

Equally, you could give top gear to many many people and they still wouldn't get good images....It's the person who rules the show Robert. Ann Cook takes unbelievable bird art with her digiscoping system, she is the exception.

Maybe there should be a digi-scoping/compact comp run alongside the regular comp.

But people could still say, "well how can my such and such a basic scope and camera compete with your super-dooper HD scope and latest 7 mega-pixel compact." Equally, in the DSLR catagory, the difference between a 10D and a 300/4 vs a 1Ds2 and a 600/4 is massive. It is not a fair contest.

The diversity and ability of gear and users goes way beyond your simple demarcation between digi-scoping vs DSLR. No comp can be fair unless everyone shoots with the same gear, then and only then does the skill of the individual become the only variable.

Anyway, I enter these comps so hopefully a few people will visit my website and donate money to WWF...its a bit of fun, not Bird Photographer of the Year.
 
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Sorry but you should read, I did point out it was not the equipment but the user. Of course the comp is for fun but it is heavily weighted towards DSLR. Check for yourself over the last years comps, look at the photos, see what won and was placed and look at the equipment used.

If you want to spend so much time taking a single shot that is your choice, because you do that does not justify why the comp should be weighted towards DSLR.

I think that the comp format should be looked into.

Robert
 
Robert L Jarvis said:
Sorry but you should read, I did point out it was not the equipment but the user. Of course the comp is for fun but it is heavily weighted towards DSLR. Check for yourself over the last years comps, look at the photos, see what won and was placed and look at the equipment used.

If you want to spend so much time taking a single shot that is your choice, because you do that does not justify why the comp should be weighted towards DSLR.

I think that the comp format should be looked into.

Robert

Believe me Robert, of all the reasons to take that long on a single image, entering a BirdForum monthly comp has to be pretty much at the bottom of the list. I entered for fun. It's birds and water, I thought my shot was nice and fits the MOTIF. And I'm quite sure the comp isn't weighted for my benefit!!!

To be honest, all this back and forth over a meaningless point convinces me that entering these shots in comps is counterproductive to how I feel about photography and conservation.

Anyone using top quality gear is going to be bookmarked as an elitest or a pro, so why enter?

And by the way, you should read, I said you had stated that it was gear not user, all I said was that it wasn't a new statement on this thread, about three others had pointed it out before you.

You seem to out on a limb here as no-one else is backing your proposal. I just think more people are using DSLR's these days and thats the way it goes. As far as I am aware the monthly comp catagories haven't changed in the two years I have been a member here. The bar is just getting higher.
 
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No there are others who feel that some change could be for the good, there has been mention of a separate comp now and then for Digiscoping. Is it that some people dislike change. I did say earlier that parhaps Admin could create a thread and a polling booth to determine if there is any support for a revamp of some type. Is that so difficult? Surely the response then could demonstrate if I am out on a limb. I will stand by how that comes out, after all I believe in democracy.

Robert
 
Im starting to think that some people do not want a specific digiscoping competition, rather a competition where high end equipment is not allowed.

I guess my entries are proof that expensive equipment does not gauranty top votes. My entries did not even make it past the judges to the top 30 last 2 competitions I participated in.
 
Paul Jarvis said:
If you were honest how many people would have voted for the photo if it was in the comp?

Call it mini voting booth for interest.


Hi Paul,

It is a very nice pic, but I doubt it would have affected the voting. As it stands just now, the top 7 shots have taken 114 out of 150 votes; 76% That leaves the remaining 36 votes spread over 23 shots, an average of 1.56 votes each.

As for your shot, the strong side-light from the left has blown the whites on the forehead, leaving the eye in shadow. Had the bird been better illuminated it would have packed in way more punch and dragged the viewers eye into it more.

Hope you don't mind the mini critique...

All the best,

Alister
 
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