• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Death Of The Alpha? (1 Viewer)

Now this is interesting.....
For some time, i took great delight in walking about with Vanguard Endeavor EDIIs in the company of alpha-owners - not missing anything, and getting some admiring comments when they looked through them. I got quite smug about it - i'd done the research, tried a few pairs of all prices, and realised i was missing nothing with the Vanguards other than a few metres of FOV. I also might not weep bitter tears if they tumbled into 6 feet of dyke-water.
I got to the point of almost inverse-snobbery, when i realised there were some fairly poor birders with £2500 of glass round their neck.
Punk birding, i thought of it....
Of course, they could speak of R&D costs, build-quality, reliability, after sales etc but i cared not for that talk. At the price i'd paid, i could probably just replace them if anything went wrong (which it hasn't....)
What i realised was that many birders actually aren't as knowledgeable about optics as the fine contributors to this forum, and buy because such-and-such make is 'the best' or because all the other top guys seem to wear them....
So when they make the purchase, they may need persuading that anything is actually a fault with their intended new buy - not looking cheaper and examining what might be good, or making any balanced judgement based on their needs.
And so - with their 'state-of-the-art' bins, they (in their own perception) have joined the elite of birders.
This, of course, might inspire them to get more serious, go out more (due to the investment) and actually become much, much better. They may also feel they will be taken more seriously by others in the community.
Thus, the alpha / non-alpha issue moves from being a logical, scientific, economic issue to one of psychology, confidence, self-image, seriousness etc.
So, going back to the opening of this post, the use of bins other than alphas may just indicate that someone has done their homework, knows what they need for what they do and has sufficient self-confidence (or really doesn't care what others think) to wear them with pride and just get out there....
 
Either that, or maybe the people with the $2500 binoculars actually see a superior view and are willing to pay for it.

paddy7 said:
Now this is interesting.....
For some time, i took great delight in walking about with Vanguard Endeavor EDIIs in the company of alpha-owners - not missing anything, and getting some admiring comments when they looked through them. I got quite smug about it - i'd done the research, tried a few pairs of all prices, and realised i was missing nothing with the Vanguards other than a few metres of FOV. I also might not weep bitter tears if they tumbled into 6 feet of dyke-water.
I got to the point of almost inverse-snobbery, when i realised there were some fairly poor birders with £2500 of glass round their neck.
Punk birding, i thought of it....
Of course, they could speak of R&D costs, build-quality, reliability, after sales etc but i cared not for that talk. At the price i'd paid, i could probably just replace them if anything went wrong (which it hasn't....)
What i realised was that many birders actually aren't as knowledgeable about optics as the fine contributors to this forum, and buy because such-and-such make is 'the best' or because all the other top guys seem to wear them....
So when they make the purchase, they may need persuading that anything is actually a fault with their intended new buy - not looking cheaper and examining what might be good, or making any balanced judgement based on their needs.
And so - with their 'state-of-the-art' bins, they (in their own perception) have joined the elite of birders.
This, of course, might inspire them to get more serious, go out more (due to the investment) and actually become much, much better. They may also feel they will be taken more seriously by others in the community.
Thus, the alpha / non-alpha issue moves from being a logical, scientific, economic issue to one of psychology, confidence, self-image, seriousness etc.
So, going back to the opening of this post, the use of bins other than alphas may just indicate that someone has done their homework, knows what they need for what they do and has sufficient self-confidence (or really doesn't care what others think) to wear them with pride and just get out there....
Click to expand...
 
"Death of the Alphas" is premature.
As long as they are produced some will buy;
but as the price goes higher and higher,
the market will become smaller.
Many will search for a cheaper,
or more reasonable, alternative.
We all have limited to what we are willing
to spend for our hobbies.

edj
 
Last edited:
paddy7 said:
What i realised was that many birders actually aren't as knowledgeable about optics as the fine contributors to this forum, and buy because such-and-such make is 'the best' or because all the other top guys seem to wear them....
So when they make the purchase, they may need persuading that anything is actually a fault with their intended new buy - not looking cheaper and examining what might be good, or making any balanced judgement based on their needs.
And so - with their 'state-of-the-art' bins, they (in their own perception) have joined the elite of birders.
This, of course, might inspire them to get more serious, go out more (due to the investment) and actually become much, much better. They may also feel they will be taken more seriously by others in the community.
/QUOTE]

And of course if you have the best bins, there is one less thing to blame for being unable to ID a bird.
Click to expand...
 
Alpha binoculars will probably always be present, as in them you will find the bulk of the improvements; however, I could see their market share start to dwindle as you can easily get 95% of the optical and mechanical performance for 50% of the cost.

Further, some people buy alphas regardless because highest price = highest performance, if only in their minds. I for one haven't been that impressed with the newest generation of alphas as compared to the previous alphas (e.g. Field Pro vs S.V, SF/HT vs FT, Noctivid vs Ultravid) or the available crop of sub-alphas, but to each his or her own.
 
If alpha bins were to dwindle in market share or die this would be in an interesting contrast to what has happened in the automotive world in Europe where premium or alpha brands like BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Audi have stolen market share from Ford, General Motors (Opel/Vauxhall), Peugeot/Citroen and Renault.

Lee
 
chill6x6 said:
I for one don't see it happening. Not to be short-changing or undermining other optic brands or other options but I think it is just wishful thinking for some brands and some consumers.

Though many of the above listed binoculars are FINE binoculars....many lack refinement, heritage, reputation, state of the art specs, superior fit/finish, company support, on-going r&d, proper accessories, and state of the art optics/coatings/innovations....to name a few.

MOST of the above listed binoculars are a better BUY than the "alpha' brands/models....a BARGAIN even. But to state that they are the EQUIVALENT of current state of the art binoculars?...ain't happening. Now to say binocular "A" has a smoother focus than alpha "A," SURE, I'll buy that. But to say it's a better binocular....that I don't buy.

The Toric Tract is a GREAT $600 binocular. Maybe can't beat it for the money. The Maven 8X42 and 9X45 are both a step up IMO and are great binoculars for the money. The Zeiss Conquest HD is right there as well with even better specs. But when you add all the pieces together they're no Swarovision or SF.
Click to expand...

Hello Chuck,

I admire your posts and always read them with respect and consideration. So please, please don't take this reply as directed to you personally. It's just that your thoughtful (and true - as far as they go) comments have made me twitch a little. So here goes!

After a certain point, to the vast,vast majority of users - it doesn't matter that the Swarovski is "better" because the extra quality doesn't make any practical difference in actual use. A Porsche 911 is inarguably a "better" quality auto than a Toyota Camry. But Monday morning at 8:30 on the New Jersey Turnpike - it doesn't matter (except for the conspicuous display of social status). You're going to get to the same place at the same time in the same comfort in either vehicle.

Undoubtedly we can imagine situations where the 911 will make a difference. The Camry will be slower through the crucial S turns at Le Mans. So we can buy, test and compare and find real differences - but they're differences without a difference to almost all real users in real situations.

So it's easy to thump Dennis on a literal level. Of course many "alphas" have something extra. The extras may even be something that a few special people will notice/need in their unique circumstances. But, if we're honest with ourselves, I suspect we've fallen into one of the special traps of modern commerce. We spend a lot of extra money buying things we don't really need in order to make ourselves or others feel like we're "alpha" people. Meanwhile, we're waiting for traffic to move just like everybody else - but down a $100k compared to the Camry driver behind us.

If this is true then "alphas" will never die. Not because they have something special that can never be replicated - but because we desperately want to show in someway that we're something special that can't be replaced. I'm not sure we can actually buy that feeling. But I am absolutely certain there will always be people offering to sell it.

Very best regards,
Jerry
 
chill6x6 said:
I for one don't see it happening. Not to be short-changing or undermining other optic brands or other options but I think it is just wishful thinking for some brands and some consumers.

Though many of the above listed binoculars are FINE binoculars....many lack refinement, heritage, reputation, state of the art specs, superior fit/finish, company support, on-going r&d, proper accessories, and state of the art optics/coatings/innovations....to name a few.

MOST of the above listed binoculars are a better BUY than the "alpha' brands/models....a BARGAIN even. But to state that they are the EQUIVALENT of current state of the art binoculars?...ain't happening. Now to say binocular "A" has a smoother focus than alpha "A," SURE, I'll buy that. But to say it's a better binocular....that I don't buy.

The Toric Tract is a GREAT $600 binocular. Maybe can't beat it for the money. The Maven 8X42 and 9X45 are both a step up IMO and are great binoculars for the money. The Zeiss Conquest HD is right there as well with even better specs. But when you add all the pieces together they're no Swarovision or SF.
Click to expand...

The only thing I would add to Chuck's excellent post above is this:

I own many alphas, along with a Toric and many other very good brands of "non-alphas". I have used Mavens when at the World Birding Center in south TX. If one cannot see the superior view that the alphas provide over a Toric or Maven or Razor or Conquest HD or Trinovid, then I would agree that the alphas are not worth the money. However, my vision is good enough for me to easily see the difference between an alpha and the others, and I am certainly willing and able to pay for that difference.

If one thinks a Toric or a Maven is just as good as an alpha, then good for them. I'm sure they will be happy with the money they saved, along with the happiness their bino's view provides. Certainly something like a Toric or Maven makes more sense for most people. For me however - I will stick to the best view I can buy, since I can still make use of that extra level of performance. Given that there are lots of people out there like me that have no problem seeing, using, and affording that extra level of performance, there will be no "death of the alpha" any time soon..........
 
jan van daalen said:
And promote them on Ebay as the best of the best everB :)

Jan
Click to expand...


This still boggles my mind - he does this every few years - pumps his bins endlessly with thread after thread of superlatives - then dumps them surreptitiously [obviously before he starts to rag on all of their flaws] and even admits he does this to get the best price.

And we all play along. Now he's looking to pump his 2 newbies, before dumping them at top price - then he will extol the virtues of the alpha again....

On any other forum, this would be a banning offense.This isn't Dennis trying to inform or Dennis being objective, it's Dennis trying to hood-wink and cajole to sell at top dollar.
 
Last edited:
[email protected] said:
I don't think you can compare Tract's or Maven's with Bushnell's. The Maven's and Tract's are cutting edge binoculars which give up hardly anything to the alpha.
Click to expand...

Dennis,

You weren't paying attention!

I wasn't comparing the binoculars of David Bushnell's time with the binoculars of Tract's and Maven's time. How did you miss that?

I was pointing out that middle men like Tract and Maven have been around for 50 years or more having binoculars made to their specifications and selling them under their own names.

Bushnell was selling binoculars at a time when all of the new improvements on optics that we are used to had not been invented and in use on the Alphas of that time!

Maven and Tract are taking advantage of these new improvements. They would be idiots if they did not! They certainly did not invent them.

It is all part of the continuing history of binoculars.

Bob
 
[email protected] said:
I don't think you can compare Zen Rays at all with Tract's or Maven's. Zen Ray's were junk IMO. These new Kamakura binoculars are a totally different animal.
Click to expand...

I'm not comparing their binoculars. I am comparing their business models and what happened to them. You still need plenty of seed money to go into and stay in a businesses like this which competes with huge corporations that make binoculars essentially as a sideline.

You had better be good at it.
 
Last edited:
JerryLogan said:
Hello Chuck,

I admire your posts and always read them with respect and consideration. So please, please don't take this reply as directed to you personally. It's just that your thoughtful (and true - as far as they go) comments have made me twitch a little. So here goes!

After a certain point, to the vast,vast majority of users - it doesn't matter that the Swarovski is "better" because the extra quality doesn't make any practical difference in actual use. A Porsche 911 is inarguably a "better" quality auto than a Toyota Camry. But Monday morning at 8:30 on the New Jersey Turnpike - it doesn't matter (except for the conspicuous display of social status). You're going to get to the same place at the same time in the same comfort in either vehicle.

Undoubtedly we can imagine situations where the 911 will make a difference. The Camry will be slower through the crucial S turns at Le Mans. So we can buy, test and compare and find real differences - but they're differences without a difference to almost all real users in real situations.

So it's easy to thump Dennis on a literal level. Of course many "alphas" have something extra. The extras may even be something that a few special people will notice/need in their unique circumstances. But, if we're honest with ourselves, I suspect we've fallen into one of the special traps of modern commerce. We spend a lot of extra money buying things we don't really need in order to make ourselves or others feel like we're "alpha" people. Meanwhile, we're waiting for traffic to move just like everybody else - but down a $100k compared to the Camry driver behind us.

If this is true then "alphas" will never die. Not because they have something special that can never be replicated - but because we desperately want to show in someway that we're something special that can't be replaced. I'm not sure we can actually buy that feeling. But I am absolutely certain there will always be people offering to sell it.

Very best regards,
Jerry
Click to expand...

When I was just starting out in photography I remember a letter sent in to a photo magazine. This guy wanted to know the best place to buy used Nikon cameras because he wanted to 'wear one' (yes 'wear', not carry or use) on holiday and he didn't have the time to use one so much that it would acquire that worn used-by-a-seasoned-photographer's look. Now there was a guy who cared about 'alpha' status and the look that carrying an alpha camera gave him.
Since birders and nature observers and optics enthusiasts are human its likely that among our ranks will be examples of every attitude towards our optics including like the one illustrated above.
But I wouldn't want to lable all alpha-lovers as deluded not least because I am one.
And the 911 stuck in traffic may not get to the destination any faster than the Camry but it will be a different experience. You can say this is not a practical difference but this argument carries no more weight than someone else's who says they love driving to work in their Porsche because they love the experience. Me? I drive a lowly Skoda and get stuck in traffic jams too but there are pleasures to be had like arriving at a crossroads about 5 miles from my house at the right speed to shift gears from 4th to 2nd as I turn left up a hill and accelerate smoothly up it and all without my passenger's head nodding forwards when slowing or backwards when accelerating. The point of this is that the same manoeuvre will be a different experience in a Porsche and the driver can derive a legitimate pleasure from this. I'm sure the Camry driver can too.
When I bought my early Swaro EL 8.5x42 I loved the feel of its tubes and armour and the way my hand rested with my little finger on the bridge at the objectives, as I hiked across the hills of Scotland with no audience to pose for. And I love the feel and balance of my Zeiss SFs and the stunning field of view. But I also enjoy the feel and focusing speed of a Conquest and the fun of Terra or the precision of a Meopta or Kowa.
There is pleasure in use, and as edj remarks, pleasure in ownership and all of this applies just as much to alphas as other bins and that is before we start arguing about optical performance.
Maybe you don't consider such pleasures as 'practical differences' and if that is so then its a shame because you are missing something really nice.

Lee
 
ceasar said:
I'm not comparing their binoculars. I am comparing their business models and what happened to them. You still need plenty of seed money to go into and stay in a businesses like this which competes with huge corporations that make binoculars essentially as a sideline.

You had better be good at it.
Click to expand...

Bob,

I think I missed something here.
What happened to Zen Ray?
Are they of the market?

Jan
 
edwincjones said:
like the Porsche 911 or a fine cigar,
there is the pride of ownership

edj
Click to expand...

Yes Mr. Jones, exactly! But what is "pride of ownership" in modern society? I was born and raised in old-style farm country/family. So how well you kept your fields, the condition of your livestock, the Ford 9N in perfect condition (because you maintained it) - those things said something about your skills and your character. So pride of ownership flowed from you, something you had actually done.

Believe me, I'm not idealizing the past. There was more than plenty of BS to go around. But we seem to be getting more and more confused about the real foundation for genuine pride.

Anybody with money can afford a Noctivid. But I think I want to say that Ken Kaufman, or David Sibley or jremmons should be entitled to "pride of ownership" in a way that Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian never will. By this I mean that being able to "afford the best" is just a display of wealth and status - being able to make real use of and understand the subtle difference offered by the best - that's real "pride of ownership."

Best,
Jerry
 
jan van daalen said:
Bob,

I think I missed something here.
What happened to Zen Ray?
Are they of the market?

Jan
Click to expand...

Jan,

I don't think anybody knows. A number of posters here have complained over the last couple of months that they haven't been able to get in contact with them about issues with the Zen Rays that they own.

Bob
 
JerryLogan said:
Yes Mr. Jones, exactly! But what is "pride of ownership" in modern society? I was born and raised in old-style farm country/family. So how well you kept your fields, the condition of your livestock, the Ford 9N in perfect condition (because you maintained it) - those things said something about your skills and your character. So pride of ownership flowed from you, something you had actually done.

Believe me, I'm not idealizing the past. There was more than plenty of BS to go around. But we seem to be getting more and more confused about the real foundation for genuine pride.

Anybody with money can afford a Noctivid. But I think I want to say that Ken Kaufman, or David Sibley or jremmons should be entitled to "pride of ownership" in a way that Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian never will. By this I mean that being able to "afford the best" is just a display of wealth and status - being able to make real use of and understand the subtle difference offered by the best - that's real "pride of ownership."

Best,
Jerry
Click to expand...

Jerry,

If there would be a prize for the best post of the year, yours would come close.

Jan
 
Last edited:
Warning! This thread is more than 7 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

J
What binoculars are as good as Nikon Superior E?
2 3
Replies
46
Views
4K
Jaywalk
J
A
Nikon Monarch HG 10x42 blackouts
Replies
9
Views
813
tenex
tenex
Snuffleupagus
2nd Pair / Upgrade for Birder - Advise Needed
2 3
Replies
44
Views
3K
jring
J
G
Leica, Zeiss & Swarovski binoculars compared: A personal report
2 3
Replies
42
Views
4K
Paultricounty
P
B
New Swarovski EL
2 3
Replies
55
Views
4K
PatR
P

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top