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2012 UK Orchid season updates (1 Viewer)

According to Harraps "Late Spider orchid is not usually self-pollinating and its pollinia never dangle loose".

The attached photos, both taken at the same site on the same day, suggest otherwise.

Anyone got any views?

Rich M

Interesting photos Rich,
Harraps also say that LSO sepals have a blunt tip and one to three green veins, Bee orchids have a more pointed sepal with five green veins! just like your photos, could we be looking at the hybrid? It would explain the dangling pollinia.

I'm also very interested if anyone else has thoughts to share.

Alan

Just noticed the position of the upper sepal is typical Bee, not arched forward as the LSO norm!
 
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Dactylorhiza

Does anyone know what sort of Dactylorhiza this is?
I bought it from Van Meuwen as a D. majalis but it doesn't match any photos of D. majalis.
It has heavily spotted, pointed leaves.
Helen
 

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The Late Spiders were photographed on May 31st before the rains started.

I'm happy to be corrected on the Fragrant, given they are a scarce species locally with just 2 sites (the other is dry, on top of Mendip) and no definite records of Marsh Fragrant.

A few years ago we tried to ascribe plants from both sites between Chalk and Marsh but gave up with both sites having plants showing features of both, and many intermediate. I even posted a series of photos from both sites on this forum, with a challenge for anyone to separate which came from which site. The inflorescence at both sites is quite loose, not dense.

I've attached a close up of the flower of todays alba. To my mind although the lip is wider than long, with shoulders, it is still quite 3 lobed. The lateral sepals are long but not blunt and are held slightly below horizontal. I've also attached 3 photos taken at the site some years ago.

What are people's views?

Rich M

To me, they all appear to lean towards Marsh Fragrant, based mainly on the width of the lip. In my experience, (not all that great it must be said!) the shape and position of the lateral sepals varies greatly within populations of the 3 Fragrant species (ones with more pointed sepals may come about through local climatic conditions or ecological stresses causing the sepals to roll up and vice versa). It seems to be a morphological feature that is dependant more on the individual than the species, in contrast to the more reliable lip dimensions/shape. Of course habitat and flowering time would be the best determiner, i.e. even if I found a Fragrant orchid with a lax spike and a narrow lip, if it was growing in a fen in July, I'd definitely ascribe it to Marsh Fragrant and put the morphological discontinuities down to variation.

For the sake of argument, here's an odd looking Fragrant orchid I photographed in an alkaline fen in Shropshire a few years ago, growing alongside Marsh Helleborines in July. The lip is far longer than wide but the lateral sepals are horizontal and blunt (apologies for the rubbish photos).

Difficult!

Mike.
 

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Just back from a rather soggy walk in the Chilterns this evening. Found good numbers of chalk fragrant just past their best now though. Lots of common spotted still nicely in flower. Pyramidal were still only just coming out. Its rather late for them as they are usually in full flower by now. No sign of white fragrants at this particular site even though I have seen them there in the past.
 
Of course habitat and flowering time would be the best determiner, i.e. even if I found a Fragrant orchid with a lax spike and a narrow lip, if it was growing in a fen in July, I'd definitely ascribe it to Marsh Fragrant and put the morphological discontinuities down to variation.


Mike.

Rich,

That's what Id be looking for too, that plant you have posted with the Marsh Helleborine is, as Mike has noted, only just coming into flower, and surrounded by Rushes and Sedges... The presence of Marsh Helleborine is also a good constant on many densiflora sites.

You could ask what makes densiflora a valid form? I would assume its the adaptation to, or exploitation of, a slightly different environmental niche than conopsea; and therefore anything morphological is at a guess a by product or handy indicator to us of that process, and hopefully becomes more constant as the species radiates from its history?

Cheers,
 
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Rich,

That's what Id be looking for too, that plant you have posted with the Marsh Helleborine is, as Mike has noted, only just coming into flower, and surrounded by Rushes and Sedges... The presence of Marsh Helleborine is also a good constant on many densiflora sites.

You could ask what makes densiflora a valid form? I would assume its the adaptation to, or exploitation of, a slightly different environmental niche than conopsea; and therefore anything morphological is at a guess a by product or handy indicator to us of that process, and hopefully becomes more constant as the species radiates from its history?

Cheers,

Thanks Gareth and Mike for your thoughts.

Maybe I should clarify the flowering time at this site. Although the alba is only just now coming into flower, all the other, pink, plants at the site are already fully in flower, in fact some are going over. And everything is late flowering this year - for example the 3 pink photos in post 320 were taken at the site on 14th June 2007.

Not sure if that makes any difference.

Rich M
 
Dear All,
If any of you drop in on the Bristol Lizard Orchid site this year I would be interested to know the number of flowering spikes that are seen. Numbers of flowering spikes did drop last year but the rosette count done by myself this year is quite high but not all are large enough to flower.
If any of you have a pocket of copper nails wak a load in those big sycamores for me. They have got to be killed off!!

Not sure if anyone gave you any feedback Brian but 7 flowering spikes, past their best, this morning. Majority of those (6) at the southern end of the site.

Rich M
 
Dark-red helleborine, Cumbria: RFI

Of the various dark-red helleborine sites in Cumbria (e.g. those mentioned by the Harraps), is there a consensus on which is best?

James
 
Of the various dark-red helleborine sites in Cumbria (e.g. those mentioned by the Harraps), is there a consensus on which is best?

James

I saw lots in bud at Gaitbarrows when I went to see the Lady's-slippers (on the limestone pavement immediately behind them). Thinking I'll go back on saturday but just waiting for confirmation on flowering from the warden.

Mike.
 
Pyramidal var emarginata

I went to the local site today for my annual dose of this variant.

It is not hard to find plants here that look like the first photo, a sort of intermediate, with a full lip but still split into three parts.

However I managed to find 5 full emarginatas, with essentially a fully rounded lip, including two side by side and another with a crimped edge to the lip.

Rich M
 

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Hi Richard

Going back to your Late Spiders, I agree with Alan, they are hybrids.

Plants I considered to be G. densiflora grow at bishop middleham, and they are quite depauperate. I think flowering time would indicate that yours are not of this type, though.
 
Thanks Gareth and Mike for your thoughts.

Maybe I should clarify the flowering time at this site. Although the alba is only just now coming into flower, all the other, pink, plants at the site are already fully in flower, in fact some are going over. And everything is late flowering this year - for example the 3 pink photos in post 320 were taken at the site on 14th June 2007.

Not sure if that makes any difference.

Rich M

Hi Rich,

Re the flowering dates, that is a tad more concerning. The west country does have generally earlier flowering times, but that is still early for a Marsh Fragrant.

There have always been populations of Fragrant Orchids that do not fit into the species created, which is why the slow process of recognition as separate species.

I would guess the anomalous nature of the plants at this site is presumably why they have been left as Common Fragrants - more of a catch all than a definition of intent perhaps (everything from a botanist's point of view started as a conopsea variation). However, Ive never seen what I would refer to as Common Fragrant conopsea in a ‘fen’, and would struggle to call any, even early flowering plants as such. Maybe that is my hang up. I think hypothetically speaking Id prefer to leave them undetermined than record as Common Fragrants.

Cheers,
 
dark red heleborines

Of the various dark-red helleborine sites in Cumbria (e.g. those mentioned by the Harraps), is there a consensus on which is best?

James

I found plenty of plants in flower at Gait Barrows last Saturday - in the limestone behind the main Lady Slipper site
 
Hi Rich,

Re the flowering dates, that is a tad more concerning. The west country does have generally earlier flowering times, but that is still early for a Marsh Fragrant.

There have always been populations of Fragrant Orchids that do not fit into the species created, which is why the slow process of recognition as separate species.

I would guess the anomalous nature of the plants at this site is presumably why they have been left as Common Fragrants - more of a catch all than a definition of intent perhaps (everything from a botanist's point of view started as a conopsea variation). However, Ive never seen what I would refer to as Common Fragrant conopsea in a ‘fen’, and would struggle to call any, even early flowering plants as such. Maybe that is my hang up. I think hypothetically speaking Id prefer to leave them undetermined than record as Common Fragrants.

Cheers,

The one colony of definite Marsh Fragrants that I know of in Somerset flower in late July/August (when I saw them on 31st July 2008 only half the stem was open).

I agree they are probably best left undetermined; I was probably wrong to refer to them as Chalk Fragrants.

Anyway thanks for everyone's thoughts.

Rich M
 
According to Harraps "Late Spider orchid is not usually self-pollinating and its pollinia never dangle loose".

The attached photos, both taken at the same site on the same day, suggest otherwise.

Anyone got any views?

Rich M

Hi Richard - have you got any side on shots of the same plant that you can post?

Regards

James
 
Hi Richard - have you got any side on shots of the same plant that you can post?

Regards

James

Is this hybrid rare? I've only ever seen it once at Parkgate (I think the same plant pictured on the first page of the Late-spider section in Harraps).

Mike.
 
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Does anyone know what sort of Dactylorhiza this is?
I bought it from Van Meuwen as a D. majalis but it doesn't match any photos of D. majalis.
It has heavily spotted, pointed leaves.
Helen

Hi Helen

It looks like a Common Spotted, with an albeit rather Heath Spotted-esk lip shape (quite complete and not deeply tri-lobed) but this is within the variation range of Common Spotted. The markings and shape of the spike would suggest this species.

Mike.
 
Hi Richard - have you got any side on shots of the same plant that you can post?

Regards

James

Hi James

actually the two pictures in post 318 were taken from two different plants.

I haven't got a side on view of the left hand picture but I have got other pics of the group of 2 or 3 plants that it was on so I've attached those.

I have got a side on view of the right hand picture which I've attached.

Interested in your views.

Rich M
 

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Hi Helen

It looks like a Common Spotted, with an albeit rather Heath Spotted-esk lip shape (quite complete and not deeply tri-lobed) but this is within the variation range of Common Spotted. The markings and shape of the spike would suggest this species.

Mike.

Thanks Mike,
That's what Rich thought too. He said to check the stem and it's solid.
I got a Cypripedium from them as well which has come up but it's very small.
Helen
 
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